Color Neutral Debate

I have decided to exit the Color Neutral debate. It is apparent to me that those who are not Color Neutral will do almost anything to justify their decision to stay fixed and I honestly am tired of arguing with immature people all day when I have nothing to gain from helping them switch. Panda Cuber, I am sorry that you stopped because you would have made it if you had stuck to my method, but instead you consistently used white, didn't solve often enough and gave up after a few weeks (I do not say this angrily or hold any resentment about this, I am just stating facts about why your transition did not succeed). I would just like to state that as of yet no one has tried my method fully without stopping AND not using white until specified.

I would just like to bow out by saying that changing is 100% possible and can be done fairly quickly, but ONLY if you stick to a regimented schedule to change. If you don't plan on sticking to this schedule then don't even try because you will be just wasting your time.

Oh, and Emolover, I have tried both methods and I did them CN off the bat, it was harder to learn, yes, but it was worth it to gain the advantages being CN offers.
 
tl;dr people ---> too bad, get over it.

jskyler91 said:
I would just like to state that as of yet no one has tried my method fully without stopping AND not using white until specified.
Click to expand...

Admittedly I did not watch your video, but I gather that the idea is to solve a color you don't normally solve for a week straight, then move to another color you don't normally solve for a week straight, and visit each color on the cube one at a time? Eventually this would bring you back to your original color. Am I correct in this (someone else please answer if jskyler is indeed not going to continue in this thread)?

Assuming I understand your method somewhat correctly then I have to say that I feel, for me, that this method is entirely too rigid. It also misses one extremely important element, in my opinion: the ability to quickly and easily choose which cross color to start with at the beginning of a solve.

Having said that, I have noticed that I am moving toward something closer to your method the longer I try to switch to color neutral. Before deciding to make the color neutral switch I was white/yellow neutral. Now I find myself most often doing averages by picking the best color of green/blue/red/orange during inspection. This still forces me to have to learn how to choose the best color (something I don't feel is an obvious skill, and which must be learned through vigorous practice). However I do think you have a point that your old colors should probably be avoided moreso than usual in the beginning of switching. I do still solve white or yellow when one of those colors is obviously the best cross, but I try to avoid them most of the time - at least for now.

jskyler91 said:
I would just like to bow out by saying that changing is 100% possible and can be done fairly quickly, but ONLY if you stick to a regimented schedule to change. If you don't plan on sticking to this schedule then don't even try because you will be just wasting your time.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you on the point that switching to color neutral is possible if: 1) You want it bad enough and 2) you put in the necessary time and effort to teach yourself to recognize on any color, and how to choose the best starting color during inspection.

I make no claim on the time necessary, as this will vary drastically from person to person based on their level of "color fixedness" so far.

I am simply saying that I disagree that the method of switching must be so completely and thoroughly rigid for all people trying the switch. I would probably give up trying to change to color neutral if I tried something as rigorous as your method. However, using a much more relaxed version of your approach I am having an absolute blast switching myself over to color neutral!

teller said:
History is going to be laughingly unkind to the anti-CN faction.
Click to expand...

aronpm said:
Can you please explain why?
Click to expand...

I agree with teller on this one, though not to the same level as him. Hearing various arguments for why people should not switch to color neutral on this forum sounds an awful lot to me like "I don't want to switch because it's too hard".

I agree that for those at the very highest levels of competitive cubing who are not currently color neutral that the amount of effort necessary to switch to color neutral would probably take years (yes, plural) to get back to their level of speed at the time that they switched. During this time the speedcubing community would have probably advanced to much higher and much faster standards, putting that person at a disadvantage during the switching, and after the switch. It would probably take another year or so to eventually have the color neutral advantages make that person competitive again.

In response to the "color neutral does not really have any advantages" argument, of course it does! You're much more likely to have an easy start to your solve! Not slightly more likely, MUCH more likely. How is that not an advantage? Also, after sufficient time and effort, the amount of time lost during last layer recognition would be negligible compared to the time gained by very often having a much better start than on color restricted solves.

Not to pull the "back in my day" card, but we had a debate over 10 years ago about whether we should change over to doing F2L on D rather than on U. The debate was nowhere near as large as the color neutral one, and more people were on the side of switching than not. Also, those who were not on the side of switching were very few in number and came around quickly by either switching to F2L on right or left (or cross on U and F2L on D).

Anyway, history doesn't really remember the both cross and F2L on U people very well. I doubt that many of you even knew about this period in cubing history at all. I think something similar to this point is what teller is referring to.

If many people switch successfully to color neutral and achieve fast times, and many people start by becoming color neutral and achieve fast times, then the staunchly anti-CN arguments will hold less water, in my opinion.
 
cmhardw said:
history doesn't really remember the both cross and F2L on U people very well.
Click to expand...

F2L on U? Not wanting to side track, but was a direct result of the diagrams/algs on Fridrich's site?

I don't see how history will look poorly on people not wanting to switch... it may look poorly on people who chose from the start not to be CN... but you can't blame people who are already fixed cross finding it too difficult to switch.

A lot of the debate has been about how long it takes to switch (in relation to your speed) but I'm wondering if a major factor is how many solves you've done. If you've done the same number of solves overall on each cross I can easily see anyone being CN, but if you've done 100,000 solves on one colour (even if you only avg 30s) I can see it taking more than a few months to switch.
I only Avg 23s on white, and I've been doing yellow just about exclusively for nearly a month and I'm still 15-20% slower on it, with more chances for mistakes. I'm slow enough that I thought it would be easy, but it's not.
 
Chris,

Here is a description of my method:
In short, my "method" for doing this, which is more just a scheduled way to change, calls for a 30 day period in which you do not ever use your original color. During this 30 days you will spend approximately 5 days on each other colors working through them systematically by color filter groups (opposite colors that share the same f2l pieces). There will be two review days where you will practice all the colors you have learned. The point of this way of doing things is that it makes sure that you have no chance to try your main color which will be faster until you complete the month and thus are not tempted to stop learning CN before your mind has the time to get used to it. Most people either only try for a week or two as Weston did or they don't do the correct system for learning each color i.e. by color filters. My method calls for a 100% CN solve policy, which most people do not normally follow and thus, IMO , fail. I do not claim this method to be fullproof or that you will be 100% perfect at CN by the end of it, I am just stating that if you stick to it you can become CN far faster than most people realize (approx. one month if you do not stop). I acknowledge that being faster will make the transition more uncomfortable, but not impossible. As many studies have shown it takes a month to change a habit, and I believe this applies for CN as well.


Days 1- 4 Practice Yellow only
Days 5- 9 Practice Blue only
Day 10- Practice Blue and Yellow, always doing the best cross
Days 11-15- Practice Green Only
Day 16- Practice with Blue Green and Yellow Only
Days 17- 21- Practice Red Only
Days 22- 26- Practice Orange Only
Days 27- 30- Practice all Colors Except White
Day 31- Til you quit cubing- Practice all colors, always choosing the best cross.

By leaving the Color Neutral debate I meant I was no longer going to waste my time trying to convince people to become CN or propose how to switch to it (except if someone has questions about it in my transition thread of course:http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?34834-Color-Neutral-Transition-Thread). I may still pop up from time to time to agree with someone or to just comment on the flow of the discussion, however I will more than likely no longer be arguing in length with people who simply just want to argue for arguing sake.

Teller,

I completely agree :)
 
I gave up because it was too hard. I knew it couldnt be done that fast.
BUT, your method has improved my lookahead and helped me with bi-cn.

And recognition.
 
I haven't used jskyler's guide- I just came across this thread- but I would definitely vouch for CN. badmephisto talked about standardizing solves in one of his videos, and ever since then, I've always started out with white. I started practising CN about three days ago, and I've broken my overall pb twice today. ofc, I'm by no means, a "fast" cuber (used to avg. 35sec with white), and this gave me bad headaches while starting out. I think I've got the hang of it, somewhat now. so again, CN for sure.
 
cmhardw said:
I am simply saying that I disagree that the method of switching must be so completely and thoroughly rigid for all people trying the switch. I would probably give up trying to change to color neutral if I tried something as rigorous as your method. However, using a much more relaxed version of your approach I am having an absolute blast switching myself over to color neutral!
Click to expand...
Chris,

I think jskyler is clearly onto something. "Cold turkey" is mental overload. Picking the best cross and having a "native" recognition of the various colors are two different skills. I used to play poker and the experts would always tell you not to attempt applying too many new ideas at once, but rather to focus and master something specific.

Personally, 5 days was not enough for me. I went on a red cross diet (it was genuinely a weak color for me) and stuck to it exclusively, I mean 100% of solves, all the time, until I achieved parity with my white/yellow. It took about 3 weeks. I am now 100% fluent with red. Prior to this, I was doing the cold turkey thing and progress was slow and spotty. Now, I know the red cross scheme backwards and forwards. Mixing in orange was trivial at that point, just like adding yellow is fairly trivial to a white-fixed solver. With all the colors down, learning to pick the best cross is much easier, as the pieces will finally "pop out" at you.

I don't see it as "rigid." I see it as a productive learning strategy, especially when people are wailing about spans of YEARS. EEK!!!

After switching from cold-turkey to fixed red, I was supremely annoyed at how constraining fixed-cross is. I am now more certain than ever that the benefits of CN are wildly understated. But you're probably right...no one will remember the arguments once the matter is settled in about 1-2 years.
 
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At no point have I said that colour netutrality is a bad thing.

You guys are great at arguing against things that you think people have said, but you should try arguing against things that they actually did say instead.
 
teller said:
I was supremely annoyed at how constraining fixed-cross is.
Click to expand...

That's one of the main reasons I still implement CN as a casual goal. I'm no where near the point of being able to see the best cross out of the 6 choices, but I can normally spot one that's "easier" for me to build. It's going to take a lot of practice...and I still go back to white cross solves even though that doesn't seem to be an efficient way of approaching the matter. Doing things my way, just like all of the other refinements I'm trying to make at the moment.
 
Color Neutral is the best way to begin in CFOP, help in the cross, and in the look ahead for the first F2L. In my opinion, is good for singles (for not survive with just skips) and in the averages (because is the best way to begin a solve). So, imagine a math problem, and you know one way to solve it (in this case begining for the white color). You will can solve very well and fast, not doubt, but it is just a way to solve it...
But now, imagine the same problem, and that you know all the ways to solve it, different and multi ways, and you will can choice the more easy to begin.
This is a logical proof.
This is the color neutrality, Feliks Zemdegs and Rowe Hessler proved this. And if anyone thinks there isn't a good way to solve or help a little, can not see the obvious.
I think it might also help in the familiarity with the pieces and so, in the look ahead. But I can´t prove this.
A video (watch the first 30 seconds): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD-E8LvhzAk&feature=related
 
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You may find what I say irrelevant because I am a 'slow' cuber (I average about 30 seconds), but I would like to share my opinions on Colour Neutrality anyway. For your information, I am CN and have been since I started.

While some cubers have become colour neutral, from their accounts, they are not CN in the same way that I am, and the same way that other CN cubers say they are. I have heard talk of 'learning' colours. I don't think that I 'know' colours. In Sillas's post, they refer to familiarity with pieces...what? When I do f2l, I just see two pieces, join them, and insert them. When I finish the cube, I could not tell you what colour my cross was without looking at the top of the solved cube and saying the opposite of that.

I don't have to think "Okay, my cross is red. One red pair is red, green, yellow. Look for red, green yellow corner, look for green yellow edge. Pair. Insert". I just do the red, green, yellow and green, yellow pair... subconsciously. I don't know what all the different pairs of each cross is without thinking about it, or looking at my cube. Here I am assuming that fixed white-cross cubers are thinking about doing the orange blue pair, the blue red pair, the red green pair and the orange green pair (to say that, I just grabbed my cube and rotated it as I typed).

What I am trying to say is this: while some have become colour neutral, they have become CN in a different way to those who do it from the start. Instead of having a sort of 'one system fits all colours' thing, these new CN'er are having a 'system' for each colour. Yes, they can solve all colours equally fast, but they solve ALL COLOURS equally fast, instead of solving no colour in particular (I hope this is clear, I fear it is not. I solve a colour, I usually have forgotten which by PLL, while, from the accounts of these 'switchers' they solve white, yellow, blue, green, red or orange equally fast).

Also, being CN does not make you faster. Being able to work out the fastest cross and/or the first X f2l pairs and then do it is what makes you faster.

I would also like to add that being colour neutral in Roux is incredibly hard...
 
From what I've noticed, cubers are either color neutral, or not. It's not something that you can change(well, at least not with great success), and if one truly wants to get better they should deal with what they have.

I think(if I wasn't color neutral) that I'd rather just focus on locating the first F2L pair during the inspection time than try and get the cross on any side.
 
jskyler91 said:
I have decided to exit the Color Neutral debate. It is apparent to me that those who are not Color Neutral will do almost anything to justify their decision to stay fixed and I honestly am tired of arguing with immature people all day when I have nothing to gain from helping them switch. Panda Cuber, I am sorry that you stopped because you would have made it if you had stuck to my method, but instead you consistently used white, didn't solve often enough and gave up after a few weeks (I do not say this angrily or hold any resentment about this, I am just stating facts about why your transition did not succeed). I would just like to state that as of yet no one has tried my method fully without stopping AND not using white until specified.

I would just like to bow out by saying that changing is 100% possible and can be done fairly quickly, but ONLY if you stick to a regimented schedule to change. If you don't plan on sticking to this schedule then don't even try because you will be just wasting your time.

Oh, and Emolover, I have tried both methods and I did them CN off the bat, it was harder to learn, yes, but it was worth it to gain the advantages being CN offers.
Click to expand...

in one of your videos, did you say its not worth it if your already sub 20? dont remember if it was u or not
 
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