Color Neutral Debate

[yockee]

So, I was just reading a thread about switching to CN on the private forum, and would have replied there, but since I can't post on the private forum, I thought I'd continue this here.

Thom, you wrote:

"No one fast has ever switched to CN. If you could do it in a month, it is likely that it would've happened by now. Fast cubers have tried for months and months to switch to no avail."

Since there was no real set guideline for what you meant by "fast", I'll just have to use my example(s) in hopes that they are fast enough to be considered fast. I do know of one fast (what I would consider to be fast averaging around 11 - 13 sec, I believe) cuber who was able to switch, and that would be Ibrahim Vajel - Shedid (AKA esquimalt1 on you tube).

It was actually because of him and a certain video he posted using a colored Dayan cube, doing CN walkthrough solves that allowed me to be able to switch as well. I spent months and months trying to switch and just couldn't do it, until I saw this video. It gave me the idea of using a stickerless Dayan, which really helped A LOT. Now I can use any cube, and average just about the same as when I use white cross.

Now, I may not be considered a "fast" cuber compared to many others, but I average around 15 sec (on the cusp of sub 15) which is fast to a lot of other people, and just the other day, had an 18 sec CN average of 12, which isn't AS fast as it would have been had I used white only, but it was only a few seconds off, whereas it could have been a 30 sec avg, like the months and months I spent trying to switch, before seeing Ibrahim's video. I have had several sub 15 CN solves as well, which tells me I'm starting to be about the same as I am with white only. So it is possible to switch at a more experienced level, just rare.

 

[Godmil]

So you're still 20% slower then with CN. I've been trying Yellow cross for a few weeks and I'm about 25% slower. Be sure to mention when your times are even, it should help work out how long it could take for someone of your speed.

Did a quick check of Esquimalt, you're right, he said he switched to CN in Dec 09, at which point he seemed to be averaging about 13s. That's pretty interesting. I wonder how long it took him.

 

[masterofthebass]

Godmill is right. I can get a 12s average with CN, but that is a far cry from 9 seconds. Just because you can get relatively close times to your normal times doesn't mean you are completely neutral. Becoming truly CN after years and years of fixed color cross way too much work for the slight benefit that you receive from it.

Get back to us when you are 15s with CN and white only at the same time.

 

[Muesli]

Hate to say it, but so what? Your anecdotal "I did it" barely holds water at all.

You've lost 3 seconds. To a sup-30 cuber 3 seconds is nothing, but sub 20 and lower it becomes more of a big deal. If Feliks, for example, suddenly gained 3 seconds in an average then he would become 80th in the world... That's more of a little bit of a drop.

I think Thom's main point was that there's very little, if any, advantage in spending the time to switch when you could be doing something more productive.

 

[yockee]

So you're still 20% slower then with CN. I've been trying Yellow cross for a few weeks and I'm about 25% slower. Be sure to mention when your times are even, it should help work out how long it could take for someone of your speed.

Did a quick check of Esquimalt, you're right, he said he switched to CN in Dec 09, at which point he seemed to be averaging about 13s. That's pretty interesting. I wonder how long it took him.

I have had some even times, just not full averages. I have noticed though, that I don't seem to favor any particular colors like I did a few months back. It just doesn't seem to matter anymore. As for Esquimalt, he told me it was a very slow process. He pretty much, just did slow, walkthrough solves until he got used to the colors, which is what I did as well. It does seem to help rather than just full on solving straight away.

Becoming truly CN after years and years of fixed color cross way too much work for the slight benefit that you receive from it.

Get back to us when you are 15s with CN and white only at the same time.

Personally, I didn't switch for the advantages of easier crosses, etc, I switched solely because I was tired of solving the same color, over and over. It's just something to make it a little more exciting.

 

[PandaCuber]

Yeah I kinda realized that it would take me a very longgg time to become CN. My times went up to high 20's. So I had decided to focus on becoming Bi-CN that way I can get a small advantage. And plus, doing it on the same color gets boring. So being Bi(CN) hasnt increased my time, I am still sub 19, it is just a little uncomfortable. I have to give it time.

Another doubt on CN.
I use a white cube, with white stickers. Do you think putting black stickers on the cube will be harder? Im using logic here, black cubes have a white side. So shouldnt a white cube have a black side? Maybe changing the stickers will kinda help me deleting the "filter" of looking for white corners.

 

[yockee]

I use a white cube, with white stickers. Do you think putting black stickers on the cube will be harder? Im using logic here, black cubes have a white side. So shouldnt a white cube have a black side? Maybe changing the stickers will kinda help me deleting the "filter" of looking for white corners.

I've used black stickers on black cubes, before. It didn't really make much of a difference. I have noticed, though, on white cubes, I can see white better. It's not that I can't see black, it's just that when I use black stickers on white cubes, I have a hard time telling black apart from blue in bad lighting. At the same time, in bad lighting, I have a hard time telling yellow from white. I guess if you choose a light shade of blue, using black wouldn't hurt, although I can't see it making much of a difference.
One thing I have noticed, though, is for someone who doesn't really like white cubes, I can solve CN on them much better than black cubes. It's weird, because I can't solve white cross very well, on white cubes... just all the other colors, hahaha.

 

[amostay2004]

I have not tried 100% to switch to CN yet because I have a comp coming, but I will most likely switch to CN after that.

And my advise to those planning to switch would be to have the right mindset. There is no process to becoming CN, you're CN when you decide to be, and you never go back to being non-CN. You don't have to think that once you get back to your non-CN average with CN, you've successfully become CN. What you have to do is simply start over and do it cold turkey.

You will be few seconds slower, but that is now your global average, and you will aim to break you PBs as you normally do. Forget about your non-CN PB, you've started a new cubing life, so to speak. Sooner or later you WILL reach your non-CN average again, because practice will make you faster.

This is especially easier to do if you have no comps coming up within a few months, so you don't have to worry about performing badly in comp.

 

[5BLD]

The question is whether it's worth the time and effort. It is sure to benefit you. After a few weeks i am now only at 13 seconds with CN and am beginning to feel it's not worth the trouble. It won't really benefit me much to outweigh the progress I couldve made by staying biCN.

For those like me who think it takes too much effort to benefit so little as Thom said, I'd say bi-CN is best if you're fast and non-CN. With full CN it'll take so long to develop that in that time non- or bi-CN would've improved times more.

It's like, (on a more extreme scale) why don't people use Heise? Surely with a lot of practice they could get a low movecount and benefit. The problem is that if they practiced with CFOP for the same time it'd take ages to reap the benefits of Heise and even equal the times.

 

[Bapao]

The question is whether it's worth the time and effort. It is sure to benefit you. After a few weeks i am now only at 13 seconds with CN and am beginning to feel it's not worth the trouble. It won't really benefit me much to outweigh the progress I couldve made by staying biCN.

For those like me who think it takes too much effort to benefit so little as Thom said, I'd say bi-CN is best if you're fast and non-CN. With full CN it'll take so long to develop that in that time non- or bi-CN would've improved times more.

It's like, (on a more extreme scale) why don't people use Heise? Surely with a lot of practice they could get a low movecount and benefit. The problem is that if they practiced with CFOP for the same time it'd take ages to reap the benefits of Heise and even equal the times.

I'm coming to the same conclusion. While it has helped me notice some major discrepancies in my F2L, I'm reverting back to studying F2L algs to complement my intuitive F2L as opposed to trying to become CN. As others have highlighted before; the new colour combinations are pretty and refreshing at first, but as a slow cuber, that doesn't console the fact that I should just "buck up" elsewhere. And even though I have no immediate desire to get fast quickly, I'd rather get faster than just dwell on something that is unlikely to help until I reach a speed that I'll probably never attain anyway.

I'll still practice it as a side project, but not as a goal that I'm expecting to master.

 

[emolover]

Color neutrality in my opinion is only worth it if you learn to do it that way. I was color neutral from my first solve so I never had to go through that annoying process of color neutrality.

 

[Sillas]

I am CN just in 2x2, in 3x3 i'm bi-CN. Because in my opnion there is not so much benefits in relation to the effort.

 

[Dene]

I don't understand why some people are saying it's nice just to use different colours for once. Every CN solver that I've spoken to has always said they don't pay any attention whatsoever to the colour they're solving on; it's just something that we don't notice.

 

[Bapao]

Color neutrality in my opinion is only worth it if you learn to do it that way. I was color neutral from my first solve so I never had to go through that annoying process of color neutrality.

And that's the only way I can imagine for this to work efficiently. It's easier for an infant to learn multiple languages whilst growing up in a multilingual environment than it is for them to catch up on those languages later on in life. Just my opinion though.

 

[Mollerz]

And that's the only way I can imagine for this to work efficiently. It's easier for an infant to learn multiple languages whilst growing up in a multilingual environment than it is for them to catch up on those languages later on in life. Just my opinion though.

Yeah, same as me really. When I started I pretty much understood intuitive cross and grasped the basic concept of intuitive F2L so I went straight into learning full PLL and 2LOLL. After a days worth of solving I thought "Wouldn't it be easier to solve on all the colour crosses? That way I make it easier for myself!" So I progressed as a CN cuber. I think that is something you definitely pick up from the beginning and not transition to as it really does not make a difference on how fast you will be.

 

[emolover]

And that's the only way I can imagine for this to work efficiently. It's easier for an infant to learn multiple languages whilst growing up in a multilingual environment than it is for them to catch up on those languages later on in life. Just my opinion though.

Maybe not from the start but definitely I you haven't gotten sub30 you should try to switch.

 

[Kirjava]

didn't even read this thread really.

I don't understand why some people are saying it's nice just to use different colours for once. Every CN solver that I've spoken to has always said they don't pay any attention whatsoever to the colour they're solving on; it's just something that we don't notice.

Because they're not CN and it's something different for them. Of course you don't notice this if you're CN, because you're used to it.

 

[Goktrenks]

To be color neutral,depends on how you do F2l,if you usually look for colors on look ahead(in the case white for most people) be sure that be CN will not work for you only if you look for pairs not colors,you probably will get that,it worked for me,I was averaging in 33 sec just doing the white cross 4 days after it I was about 31 sec (doing dual cross) and now with white,yellow,blue and green trying with orange,I'm averaging now in 30 sec,my f2l didn't lowered a lot (1 sec) but I was doing the cross in 5 sec now usually 2-3 sec so it is working for me.In my opinion,if you solve in 20+ sec I think that won't be not so hard to become CN.Well,I think that It's much better if you solve OH without using time (of course doing as much faster you can)it worked for me because I have more time to find pairs

 

[jskyler91]

Oooo fun, another chance to get into a CN war with Kirjava!!!! JK, in reality I think the biggest issue with CN and in particular switching to it, is simply that not enough people have tried it fullheartedly; without stopping or reverting to their old color, to honestly say if it is or isn't possible to switch when you are fast. Its like with Roux and ZZ, those methods could hold more potential overall than CFOP, and IMOP they do, but not enough people are doing them to tell. If you want to switch then try it out for at least a month if not more, without stopping and tell us your results, if not, then don't say it is or is not possible because you honestly just don't know.

 

[rowehessler]

lol. I love reading these threads on CN.