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Belief in evolution?

Do you believe in evolution?


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2012BIER01
#81
When you say you don't believe in "macro-evolution", what exactly do you mean? "Macro-evolution" is not a separate process from "micro-evolution", they are identical processes observed on different timescales.

Genetic variation coupled with limited resources leads to some traits being more beneficial to survival than others. Individuals with beneficial traits pass on those traits to their offspring, while those with detrimental traits do not survive to reproduce. This process leads to small changes on short timescales, and accumulates to result in large changes when given a long time to act.

In order for micro- and macro-evolution to be separate processes, you would need two separate types of genetic material: one shared between all organisms and one which is specific to each organism. But this isn't what we observe - genetics works in much the same way across all life, and genetic material can be fairly trivially transferred from one organism to another.
I guess I'm trying to say that I don't believe that over billions of years a single-celled organism could evolve into a human being. I believe evolution works on a much slower time scale. I guess this is what I mean rather than "macro" or "micro."
 
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#82
I think the implication is that evolution is simply a fact, so there's no real "belief". It's like believing that 2+2=4. It's just a fact, so you aren't really "believing" in anything. Just knowing a fact is true.
Well, the "fact" that 2+2=4 isn't really a fact. At some point in time, someone came up with the idea of the number 2 to represent a certain quantity of something. The words we use to describe what we know are just things we have made up. Does that make them facts, since they are just random phrases that we have given a certain meaning?

anyway, a lot of people on this thread have said that evolution is a fact, and if you don't believe it, you are either uneducated or flat out crazy. I have looked at this argument from both points of view, and there is plenty of problems with both evolution and creationism (for example, how did Adam and Eve's sons reproduce as there was only one woman, Eve, on the earth?). I am not saying that I don't believe in evolution, because I do, but there can be a balance between a God (from any religion, not just Christianity) and evolution.
 
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#83
Well, the "fact" that 2+2=4 isn't really a fact. At some point in time, someone came up with the idea of the number 2 to represent a certain quantity of something. The words we use to describe what we know are just things we have made up. Does that make them facts, since they are just random phrases that we have given a certain meaning?

anyway, a lot of people on this thread have said that evolution is a fact, and if you don't believe it, you are either uneducated or flat out crazy. I have looked at this argument from both points of view, and there is plenty of problems with both evolution and creationism (for example, how did Adam and Eve's sons reproduce as there was only one woman, Eve, on the earth?). I am not saying that I don't believe in evolution, because I do, but there can be a balance between a God (from any religion, not just Christianity) and evolution.
Yes, i agree that people need to stop saying that it is a fact that evolution/creationism is a fact and begin looking at the situation from both perspectives. I personally believe in evolution, but i believe that creationism is a possibility. As far as what you are saying with 2+2=4 not being a fact, although the symbols and words that we use to represent specific quantity, can we all agree that if you have two of something, and add two more, then you have 4. You can still do math without using numbers making 2+2=4 a fact. Like if you look down at the amount of hands that you have and then combine them with another person's hands, you know for a fact, without using numbers that you have "4", if that makes sense. I remember when i was a toddler, my grandmother taught me single digit adding and subtracting litterally before i was able to count. She would put cheerios or something on my high chair and add and subtract them in front of me, and then say the number that she was adding/subtracting aloud. then she would repeat the number to me, i would do the problem, and if i got it right i would get to eat the cheerios. It sounds really dumb, but she taught me this, then taught me how to count later.
 
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DeeDubbCubing
#84
Well, the "fact" that 2+2=4 isn't really a fact. At some point in time, someone came up with the idea of the number 2 to represent a certain quantity of something. The words we use to describe what we know are just things we have made up. Does that make them facts, since they are just random phrases that we have given a certain meaning?
Yes it does make them facts. We only have language to communicate and express our ideas with, and as long as "2" is understood as the quantity in base 10 and nothing else, and "4" is understood as the quanity in base 10 and nothing else, and + and = are understood for what they represent, then "2+2=4" is absolutely a fact.
 
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2012SCHM07
#86
If you don't believe in bbt/evo:
who/what created god?
what surrounded god before he created heaven and earth?
what did god do before those 6/7 days where god created everything?

as for facts, I know that my mother gave birth to me, and her mother gave birth to her( I have seen these women) and her mother gave birth to her(I have seen a picture of her) and so on. But who the "first" mother was, I don't know/care.
I am therefore I am.
 
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#87
If you don't believe in bbt/evo:
who/what created god?
what surrounded god before he created heaven and earth?
what did god do before those 6/7 days where god created everything?

as for facts, I know that my mother gave birth to me, and her mother gave birth to her( I have seen these women) and her mother gave birth to her(I have seen a picture of her) and so on. But who the "first" mother was, I don't know/care.
I am therefore I am.
Who caused the Big Bang?
In what medium did everything expand?
What is outside this universe?
What was happening in the space(?) before the Big Bang?
 
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#88
If you don't believe in bbt/evo:
who/what created god? ...blah..blah...
What did the first ameaba come from? What was around before the "big bang?" Why did birds evolve wings before they could fly. If the universe is finite what is outside it? Why is man so much more 'evolved' than anything else. How do magnets work?
 

Dene

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#89
I have looked at this argument from both points of view, and there is plenty of problems with both evolution and creationism (for example, how did Adam and Eve's sons reproduce as there was only one woman, Eve, on the earth?). I am not saying that I don't believe in evolution, because I do, but there can be a balance between a God (from any religion, not just Christianity) and evolution.
You didn't mention any problems with evolution. I would be interested to hear what you think the issues are.
 

JasonK

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#90
Who caused the Big Bang?
Why does there have to be a "who"? I'm not a physicist, but my understanding is that quantum fluctuations in the energy-dense early universe were enough to cause the massive inflation predicted by the Big Bang model.

bran said:
In what medium did everything expand?
It didn't/isn't expand(ing) into a medium, the medium itself is expanding.

bran said:
What is outside this universe?
It's impossible to detect anything further than about 46 billion light years away, so we will probably never know.

bran said:
What was happening in the space(?) before the Big Bang?
There was no space or time before the big bang, so asking what happened "before" it is as meaningless as asking what is South of the South Pole.

Disclaimer: I'm a biologist, not a physicist, so my understanding of this stuff could be flawed.

EDIT: Apparently the edge of the observable universe is 46 billion lya, not 14, because of the expansion of space between the Big Bang and now.
 
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#91
Why does there have to be a "who"? I'm not a physicist, but my understanding is that quantum fluctuations in the energy-dense early universe were enough to cause the massive inflation predicted by the Big Bang model.

It didn't/isn't expand(ing) into a medium, the medium itself is expanding.

It's impossible to detect anything further than about 14 billion light years away, so we will probably never know.

There was no space or time before the big bang, so asking what happened "before" it is as meaningless as asking what is South of the South Pole.

Disclaimer: I'm a biologist, not a physicist, so my understanding of this stuff could be flawed.
My post was merely a reply to what Schmidt posted. I myself am pretty uneducated in this field so I can't really argue on this topic.
I should have wrote "who/what" instead of just "who" so that's bad on my part
 

JasonK

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#92
My post was merely a reply to what Schmidt posted. I myself am pretty uneducated in this field so I can't really argue on this topic.
I should have wrote "who/what" instead of just "who" so that's bad on my part
And my post was a reply to yours. Your questions were answerable, Schmidt's weren't.
 
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#93
And my post was a reply to yours. Your questions were answerable, Schmidt's weren't.
I don't really find an answer though.
You said that space isn't expanding in a medium, later on you say that it's impossible to know what's outside the space, doesn't really add up for me as to how you can make a claim about something you don't know/ will never probably know. Again, because it is impossible to know what's outside the Universe how do you know that there was no space or time before the Big Bang? It's possible that there might be a space in which an extremely hot and dense particle exploded and started expanding.
Once again I might be completely wrong with my arguments and logic (I would love it if someone corrects me) and sorry if I come across as rude or harsh.
 

JasonK

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#94
I don't really find an answer though.
You said that space isn't expanding in a medium, later on you say that it's impossible to know what's outside the space, doesn't really add up for me as to how you can make a claim about something you don't know/ will never probably know. Again, because it is impossible to know what's outside the Universe how do you know that there was no space or time before the Big Bang? It's possible that there might be a space in which an extremely hot and dense particle exploded and started expanding.
Once again I might be completely wrong with my arguments and logic (I would love it if someone corrects me) and sorry if I come across as rude or harsh.
Unfortunately, I don't understand it much more than you do. Particle physics has an annoying tendency to be completely unintuitive.

However, a huge amount of work has been done in these areas by people much cleverer than me, and I believe their observations and their mathematics much more than I believe my own uneducated brain when it comes to questions about the origins of the universe.
 

LNZ

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#95
Please remember that Jenny McCarthy only appeared in 2002 or so after her son Evan got autism (or not so, depending on personal view) at age 3.

To this day she believes in Dr Andrew Wakefield's view which was first sighted in 1998. Almost all people have debunked his ideas on the MMR vaccine and autism.

Science and the scienitfic method is under severe attack all over the world by all sort of parties like the religous right in the USA, Islamic fundamentalists in Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan and lobby groups like the coal and mining industries and people like Andrew Bolt and Gina Reinhart (in Australia who both are climatew change deniers).

Not good times to belive in science.
 

Dene

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#96
What does this have to do with you not getting your vaccinations? Please tell me you have since gotten vaccinated.

I was reading something today saying less than 90% of people get their children vaccinated. It's a total disgrace. Parents shouldn't have a choice, and if they don't like it they should have their kids taken away and vaccinated, and then given to responsible parents.
 
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#99
I have a question for creationists which i have asked multiple times and never gotten a clear answer: If somebody is born with a severe mental illness/deficiency, when they go to heaven, are they automatically able to process information and learn things like other people? Like, do they somehow slowly grow into normal thinking and learning, or do they instantly do it?
 
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2012BIER01
If you don't believe in bbt/evo:
who/what created god?
what surrounded god before he created heaven and earth?
what did god do before those 6/7 days where god created everything?

as for facts, I know that my mother gave birth to me, and her mother gave birth to her( I have seen these women) and her mother gave birth to her(I have seen a picture of her) and so on. But who the "first" mother was, I don't know/care.
I am therefore I am.
No one created God.
Nothing.
God created time. God is the absolute beginning of everything.

I have a question for creationists which i have asked multiple times and never gotten a clear answer: If somebody is born with a severe mental illness/deficiency, when they go to heaven, are they automatically able to process information and learn things like other people? Like, do they somehow slowly grow into normal thinking and learning, or do they instantly do it?
Once we go to heaven we receive a new body and there will be no more illness or disease. It would be instantaneous.

If people who believe in evolution are actually curious about what I as a creationist believe you could go to reasons.org
Also an interesting debate between Hugh Ross (creationist) and Victor Stenger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOE48P2M-ao
It's more about the creation of everything, which is the real issue that creationists have.
 
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