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Baltimore Spring 2010

Will you attend this competition?


  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .

Kian

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xkiesterx
Has anyone decided what we are going to do with Shane Rowland's 13.61 for 3x3x3 speed?
I'm assuming it'll stay the way it is considering there's no way to prove that he didn't get that solve.
You can't prove I didn't just run a 3 minute mile, but that didn't happen either.

Basically something needs to be done because there is virtually no way that happened honestly.

Kind of off topic, but it shouldn't be. Did anyone happen to find a stackmat timer with the button covers removed?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dave Campbell has it. His is missing, unfortunately.
 

puzzlemaster

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Has anyone decided what we are going to do with Shane Rowland's 13.61 for 3x3x3 speed?
I'm assuming it'll stay the way it is considering there's no way to prove that he didn't get that solve.
You can't prove I didn't just run a 3 minute mile, but that didn't happen either.

Basically something needs to be done because there is virtually no way that happened honestly.
Agreed...but what can we do about it? I understand it's highly unlikely...but how can we disprove it?
 

Dene

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Has anyone decided what we are going to do with Shane Rowland's 13.61 for 3x3x3 speed?
I'm assuming it'll stay the way it is considering there's no way to prove that he didn't get that solve.
You can't prove I didn't just run a 3 minute mile, but that didn't happen either.

Basically something needs to be done because there is virtually no way that happened honestly.
Agreed...but what can we do about it? I understand it's highly unlikely...but how can we disprove it?
No evidence is needed. He clearly did not genuinely get that time. How that time happened to appear on the system is an issue that does need to be resolved though.
 

chris410

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
394
Has anyone decided what we are going to do with Shane Rowland's 13.61 for 3x3x3 speed?
I'm assuming it'll stay the way it is considering there's no way to prove that he didn't get that solve.
You can't prove I didn't just run a 3 minute mile, but that didn't happen either.

Basically something needs to be done because there is virtually no way that happened honestly.
Agreed...but what can we do about it? I understand it's highly unlikely...but how can we disprove it?
Perhaps the person who judged the time can attest to the actual solve. That way, if someone wrote a time that did not take place, proper action can be taken.

29 Shane Rowland 13.61 43.98 USA 13.61 50.63 1:38.86 34.94 46.38

That being said, looking at the times, it appears that a typo must have been made, the time SD is far too great to indicate any potential for a 13 second solve. The fastest time of 34.94 is 21.33 second difference with none of the other times even close. To me, that appears to be highly suspect in terms of the wrong time being written down. It could have been entered incorrectly as well (maybe a 2x2 time in the 3x3 field?)

Also, I had to speak to one of the judges, I know the kid was trying to help however, reaching over during a solve is distracting so I had to literally pull him away while Dan Cohen was performing a solve and ask him to NOT crowd the table while someone is solving. While it did not seem to slow Dan at all, I know others or specifically, a beginner such as myself would be distracted.

The event was fun, sure things could have gone better however, it was good to see people take control and help out.
 
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CharlieCooper

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rxbeef
For the record, he came over to me, picked up my cube and my Stackmat Timer, did some ridiculously easy set up handscramble, and got 13.02.
I heard that's what you do?

Also yeah that Shane time is absurd. Perhaps he should have been given an extra attempt and that solve DNFed if the judge wasn't looking. As it was his first solve though I suppose a judge wouldn't have noticed that it was out of character with no other times on the sheet. Having discussed this at length with Joey, somebody scrambling or judging that he knew might have helped him with this.
 

puzzlemaster

Member
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Jan 2, 2009
Messages
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WCA
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lordskull14
Has anyone decided what we are going to do with Shane Rowland's 13.61 for 3x3x3 speed?
I'm assuming it'll stay the way it is considering there's no way to prove that he didn't get that solve.
You can't prove I didn't just run a 3 minute mile, but that didn't happen either.

Basically something needs to be done because there is virtually no way that happened honestly.
Agreed...but what can we do about it? I understand it's highly unlikely...but how can we disprove it?
No evidence is needed. He clearly did not genuinely get that time. How that time happened to appear on the system is an issue that does need to be resolved though.
It appeared on the system because it was the time written on the score sheet. That was what baffled us all. We were all unsure as to whether it was foul play or whether it was a legitimate solve. I personally don't think it was legitimate but can we just DNF it?
For the record, he came over to me, picked up my cube and my Stackmat Timer, did some ridiculously easy set up handscramble, and got 13.02.
Lol he can average sub 10 like that.

http://www.youtube.com/user/runnerforever22#p/u/4/DueTZKxTsfU

Has anyone decided what we are going to do with Shane Rowland's 13.61 for 3x3x3 speed?
I'm assuming it'll stay the way it is considering there's no way to prove that he didn't get that solve.
You can't prove I didn't just run a 3 minute mile, but that didn't happen either.

Basically something needs to be done because there is virtually no way that happened honestly.
Agreed...but what can we do about it? I understand it's highly unlikely...but how can we disprove it?
Perhaps the person who judged the time can attest to the actual solve. That way, if someone wrote a time that did not take place, proper action can be taken.

Also, I had to speak to one of the judges, I know the kid was trying to help however, reaching over during a solve is distracting so I had to literally pull him away while Dan Cohen was performing a solve and ask him to NOT crowd the table while someone is solving. While it did not seem to slow Dan at all, I know others or specifically, a beginner such as myself would be distracted.

The event was fun, sure things could have gone better however, it was good to see people take control and help out.
Yea. There should be some information the judges should be given. For example, they must stand directly behind the competitor and wait quietly till the solve is over. Something of that nature should work fine. Unless people are uncomfortable being watched like that :p.
 

puzzlemaster

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For the record, he came over to me, picked up my cube and my Stackmat Timer, did some ridiculously easy set up handscramble, and got 13.02.
I heard that's what you do?

Also yeah that Shane time is absurd. Perhaps he should have been given an extra attempt and that solve DNFed if the judge wasn't looking. As it was his first solve though I suppose a judge wouldn't have noticed that it was out of character with no other times on the sheet. Having discussed this at length with Joey, somebody scrambling or judging that he knew might have helped him with this.
Whoops double post :eek:.

I've never seen him do that. He did however get a 17 and a 16 on cubes that I handscrambled for him.
 

Tim Reynolds

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Facts: Justin Jaffray's mom was the judge. There was no transcription error. That is exactly what the card said. She confirmed he did a 13-second solve. I saw his solves after that, and they were (at least approximately) the times that were written down.
 

Dene

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Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
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No evidence is needed. He clearly did not genuinely get that time. How that time happened to appear on the system is an issue that does need to be resolved though.
It appeared on the system because it was the time written on the score sheet. That was what baffled us all. We were all unsure as to whether it was foul play or whether it was a legitimate solve. I personally don't think it was legitimate but can we just DNF it?
Well then we must figure out how it appeared on the score sheet. I think we should fairly assume that the judge correctly recorded the time that was displayed on the timer at the end of the solve. Which means that something happened before the solve started which ensured Shane an easy, and false, scramble.

We can easily prove that the scramble he did was false. We can ask him how he got such a quick time, and he might say "PLL skip easy peasy". Then we can give him the real scramble and ask him to reconstruct his solve. I'm sure if he is a fixed cross solver, this should be easily done. When he cannot prove that his solution happened to be outrageously lucky we can claim that he got the wrong scramble. Therefore the result is void.
 

Kirjava

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For the record, he came over to me, picked up my cube and my Stackmat Timer, did some ridiculously easy set up handscramble, and got 13.02.
I heard that's what you do?

I lol'd.

Anyway, as for shane - it'll be interesting to see what happens with his results. From what I've heard some relevant information has been relayed to the correct people, but I can't imagine enough relevant info exists for proof.
 

puzzlemaster

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WCA
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lordskull14
No evidence is needed. He clearly did not genuinely get that time. How that time happened to appear on the system is an issue that does need to be resolved though.
It appeared on the system because it was the time written on the score sheet. That was what baffled us all. We were all unsure as to whether it was foul play or whether it was a legitimate solve. I personally don't think it was legitimate but can we just DNF it?
Well then we must figure out how it appeared on the score sheet. I think we should fairly assume that the judge correctly recorded the time that was displayed on the timer at the end of the solve. Which means that something happened before the solve started which ensured Shane an easy, and false, scramble.

We can easily prove that the scramble he did was false. We can ask him how he got such a quick time, and he might say "PLL skip easy peasy". Then we can give him the real scramble and ask him to reconstruct his solve. I'm sure if he is a fixed cross solver, this should be easily done. When he cannot prove that his solution happened to be outrageously lucky we can claim that he got the wrong scramble. Therefore the result is void.
That itself is gonna be a bit of an issue...and I guess you could do that...but then you're asking him to do it fast? How are you going to be able to verify that he's not using an optimal solver for the solution? Obviously the solve wouldnt use a method i suppose if it used an optimal solver. But it's possible for him to find an easy or fast solution...maybe re-do the solve in front of someone and if it's sub-20 then we keep the solve?
 

Kian

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He should not be given any extra attempt. If he cheated his way to the 13, he obviously doesn't deserve anything but a ban, but I understand how it puts the WCA board in an awkward place without concrete evidence.

The judge was Justin Jaffray's mom, and the time happened, but it's assuredly his set up scramble.

Frankly even though they can't prove it, we all know it happened and the WCA is under no obligation to prove anything beyond all doubts. I would very not like to see his blatant cheating at a competition again (Read: Ban.)

Also, Christopher Phillips's 30 move FMC is suspicious, too.

Of note, it would have been super easy to cheat in either of those two situations. For FMC the judge was wandering around and not paying attention for a time and in 3x3 it was chaotic and people weren't called, they just randomly brought up their cubes, so it would have been extraordinarily easy for Shane to bring up a fake scramble and have a judge pick it up as a scramble.

Dave had me judge Shane's last three solves so that I could account for the rest of his speed, and I can. If I gave Shane a thousand solves he might never get a sub 20. A 13 is impossible.

Also, given his previous reputation it just seems so blatantly obvious what really happened that I don't see the point in ignoring who he has been in the past. This went from him being an annoyance to being a real problem.
 
Last edited:

puzzlemaster

Member
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He should not be given any extra attempt. If he cheated his way to the 13, he obviously doesn't deserve anything but a ban, but I understand how it puts the WCA board in an awkward place without concrete evidence.

The judge was Justin Jaffray's mom, and the time happened, but it's assuredly his set up scramble.

Frankly even though they can't prove it, we all know it happened and the WCA is under no obligation to prove anything beyond all doubts. I would very not like to see his blatant cheating at a competition again (Read: Ban.)

Also, Christopher Phillips' 30 move FMC is borderline impossible, too.

Of note, it would have been super easy to cheat on either of those two situations. For FMC the judge was wandering around and not paying attention for a time and in 3x3 it was chaotic and people weren't called, they just randomly brought up their cubes, so it would have been extraordinarily easy for Shane to bring up a fake scramble and have a judge pick it up as a scramble.

Dave had me judge Shane's last three solves so that I could account for the rest of his speed, and I can. If I gave Shane a thousand solves he might never get a sub 20. A 13 is impossible.

Also, given his previous reputation it just seems so blatantly obvious what really happened that I don't see the point in ignoring who he has been in the past. This went from him being an annoyance to being a real problem.
I pretty much agree with all of that. But how can we disprove Chris's FMC? It came together didn't it? I wasn't looking at the cube as I solved however so I'm not entirely sure as to how he did it. Anyone remember the method itself?
 

Kian

Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
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Location
East Brunswick, NJ
WCA
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xkiesterx
He should not be given any extra attempt. If he cheated his way to the 13, he obviously doesn't deserve anything but a ban, but I understand how it puts the WCA board in an awkward place without concrete evidence.

The judge was Justin Jaffray's mom, and the time happened, but it's assuredly his set up scramble.

Frankly even though they can't prove it, we all know it happened and the WCA is under no obligation to prove anything beyond all doubts. I would very not like to see his blatant cheating at a competition again (Read: Ban.)

Also, Christopher Phillips' 30 move FMC is borderline impossible, too.

Of note, it would have been super easy to cheat on either of those two situations. For FMC the judge was wandering around and not paying attention for a time and in 3x3 it was chaotic and people weren't called, they just randomly brought up their cubes, so it would have been extraordinarily easy for Shane to bring up a fake scramble and have a judge pick it up as a scramble.

Dave had me judge Shane's last three solves so that I could account for the rest of his speed, and I can. If I gave Shane a thousand solves he might never get a sub 20. A 13 is impossible.

Also, given his previous reputation it just seems so blatantly obvious what really happened that I don't see the point in ignoring who he has been in the past. This went from him being an annoyance to being a real problem.
I pretty much agree with all of that. But how can we disprove Chris's FMC? It came together didn't it? I wasn't looking at the cube as I solved however so I'm not entirely sure as to how he did it. Anyone remember the method itself?
The fact that it wasn't just a cube explorer solution doesn't mean there wasn't any outside help. Normally we would just ask the solver to explain their solution, as per the regs, but given his disability it posed a problem and I'm not sure how evident it was to the Bob, etc. at the time that it was likely a solution with outside interference.
 

Tim Reynolds

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He should not be given any extra attempt. If he cheated his way to the 13, he obviously doesn't deserve anything but a ban, but I understand how it puts the WCA board in an awkward place without concrete evidence.

The judge was Justin Jaffray's mom, and the time happened, but it's assuredly his set up scramble.

Frankly even though they can't prove it, we all know it happened and the WCA is under no obligation to prove anything beyond all doubts. I would very not like to see his blatant cheating at a competition again (Read: Ban.)

Also, Christopher Phillips' 30 move FMC is borderline impossible, too.

Of note, it would have been super easy to cheat on either of those two situations. For FMC the judge was wandering around and not paying attention for a time and in 3x3 it was chaotic and people weren't called, they just randomly brought up their cubes, so it would have been extraordinarily easy for Shane to bring up a fake scramble and have a judge pick it up as a scramble.

Dave had me judge Shane's last three solves so that I could account for the rest of his speed, and I can. If I gave Shane a thousand solves he might never get a sub 20. A 13 is impossible.

Also, given his previous reputation it just seems so blatantly obvious what really happened that I don't see the point in ignoring who he has been in the past. This went from him being an annoyance to being a real problem.
I pretty much agree with all of that. But how can we disprove Chris's FMC? It came together didn't it? I wasn't looking at the cube as I solved however so I'm not entirely sure as to how he did it. Anyone remember the method itself?
It was a classic, easy Petrus solve. Very FMC-like. It didn't just "come together" as lots of people who weren't really paying attention thought--it was very clear. Leading option is that it's Johannes' FMC solver.
 
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