[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[elrog]

For OH solving ZZ F2L, not having to do z rotations to switch between the right and left sides helps. The first thing I do after EO line is to get all of me left side block pieces out of the right block so you can solve the left block first without doing any R moves until you switch to the right block which you can solve without L moves. An easy way to recognize pieces the belong to the left block is to look for the pieces with the left side color on them and don't have to top color on them. I would not recommend doing this for 2H because you can sometimes find more efficient solution by adding an R move into the left block or vice-versa.

 

[cubeaddicted]

Are there any alg pages for all the 20 phasing cases?

 

[Hadean]

Really confused, in need of guidance

Hey everyone
im kinda new to speed cubing, currently im using cfop and am getting consistently 55 seconds, im been cubing for about a month now. I just want to get faster, i practice like crazy (all day in school and at home) my problem is i tried zz and i really like it, the only problem is i can't do zzf2l as fast as i can do cfop f2l, but on the flip side i can solve an EOline very quickly whereas i struggle to solve the cross in less than 10 moves, i was just wondering if anyone had any ideas or tips for me, anything would be much appreciated.

 

[TheOneOnTheLeft]

Just practise. Whether it's ZZF2L or cross, it'll get faster with practice, and at your speed it should get faster reasonably quickly.

 

[Hadean]

which method would you recommend?

 

[Carson]

At your speed, there are plenty of ways to shave a few seconds off of your time. The best thing you can do to get assistance is to post a video of a few solve (average of 5 maybe?) so that we can see where your "hiccups" are at.

 

[cubingawsumness]

Personally, I would recommend sticking with CFOP for awhile and getting decent at f2l before switching to zz (sub-30 or something?). A lot of things carry over, and imo, CFOP is an easier method to learn (but maybe not to get good at).
Overall, don't worry too much about your times - your times will most likely naturally decrease even with minimal practice. Have fun and enjoy yourself!

 

[notfeliks]

If you are enjoying ZZF2L, then I would suggest taking a look at the Roux method and see how you like it. It's very intuitive, similar to ZZ and has a low movecount. Try and "fingertrick" the layers, instead of "wrist turning" them. For example, your left index finger for a U' move and your right ring finger for D'. Try and find what works best for you.

The fact that you can solve an EOline quickly is obvious. It is simply half a cross, and you can quite often skip the step from the scramble.

Otherwise, I would recommend doing some very slow solves and try looking at the cube from a different perspective as you solve it. For example, where colours are in relation to each other and the way the pieces move about. Optimally, try to get to a point where you can solve the cube slowly and not pause in the middle of it.

A video showing us some of your solves wouldn't be half bad either, as Carson recommended.

 

[cubingawsumness]

The fact that you can solve an EOline quickly is obvious. It is simply half a cross, and you can quite often skip the step from the scramble.

What you describe is the "line" part of EOLine. EO is generally considered the part that is actually "hard". Obviously anyone who can solve a cross can solve a line, and more quickly at that.

 

[78BFE]

Well practice is what most people will tell you.

You will get better at cross over time.

 

[ScottyDoesntCube]

Cross was the part I struggled and put off for the longest. Don't be afraid to take more than 15 seconds to plan it out if you need to at first. Don't plan out just what moves to make, but how to best perform the moves using fingertricks as well.

 

[TDM]

Personally, I would recommend sticking with CFOP for awhile and getting decent at f2l before switching to zz (sub-30 or something?). A lot of things carry over, and imo, CFOP is an easier method to learn (but maybe not to get good at).
Overall, don't worry too much about your times - your times will most likely naturally decrease even with minimal practice. Have fun and enjoy yourself!

I agree with this. You'll improve your F2L by practising CFOP anyway, as they are similar (but not the same). I'd get to the stage where you've learned full PLL before switching, as you can then use that in ZZ solves, but something like sub-30 is good too. Just don't do what I did and get too fast at CFOP before switching; then catching up takes a long time.

 

[Egide]

For those interested in Advanced Phasing Here are the algorithms l found a while back.
l got the idea from Nick vu and the images are from Conrad Rider https://www.dropbox.com/s/3y4e5kj1yqic6wp/PLS.docx

 

[TDM]

Does anyone use ZZ-blah? How easy is recog (for both steps)?

And just another completely separate idea I thought of a while ago but forgot to post until today (or I may have posted it before and forgotten): during 'EOLine', purposely misorient all LL edges, and during the last slot, misorient all corners. Then you'll be left with loads of stickers facing U, which could make 1lLL recog easier. Just like ZZ-blah recog but edge permutation is easier to see because the not-LL stickers are all on U. Idk how good it would be though, as you'd then have to use F moves. I guess you could use Rw/Lw...

 

[aznanimedude]

Don't know of anyone who does blah, I don't think he even posted anything other than "this is my idea omg this is amazing"

 

[elrog]

I was just thinking of how people advocate for COLL by using the argument that you get to skip the last step more often (1/12 times).

This could tampered with by phasing. You could do normal phasing and use COLL algorithms that preserve the phasing and end up with a 25% chance of solved, 25% chance of H-perm, and 50% chance of a Z-perm.

On the other hand, you could phase to make sure you don't have opposite colors opposite of eachother. Phasing like this is extremely easy and wouldn't really slow you down. Doing this ensures a 100% chance of the U-perm.

 

[uvafan]

I was just thinking of how people advocate for COLL by using the argument that you get to skip the last step more often (1/12 times).

This could tampered with by phasing. You could do normal phasing and use COLL algorithms that preserve the phasing and end up with a 25% chance of solved, 25% chance of H-perm, and 50% chance of a Z-perm.

On the other hand, you could phase to make sure you don't have opposite colors opposite of eachother. Phasing like this is extremely easy and wouldn't really slow you down. Doing this ensures a 100% chance of the U-perm.

That is just not true, at least in a very fast speedsolve. I'm pretty sure it's been thought of before and it's just not worth it, especially in 2H in which H and Z can be executed about as quickly as Us.

 

[mDiPalma]

There has always been the idea to learn 2 algs for each COLL case to help especially with OH.

1) If the LL case you get can be solved by the one of the two algs you know, apply it.
2) If not, apply the alg that will give you a U perm.

It doubles the chance of PLL skip to 1/6 and otherwise guarantees an easy PLL. This would be a good stepping stone towards ZBLL.

 

[SenileGenXer]

I was just thinking of how people advocate for COLL by using the argument that you get to skip the last step more often (1/12 times).

This could tampered with by phasing. You could do normal phasing and use COLL algorithms that preserve the phasing and end up with a 25% chance of solved, 25% chance of H-perm, and 50% chance of a Z-perm.

On the other hand, you could phase to make sure you don't have opposite colors opposite of eachother. Phasing like this is extremely easy and wouldn't really slow you down. Doing this ensures a 100% chance of the U-perm.

I know people hate my crazy ideas but why use a full COLL alg when you could use half. Use a probability lance to cut down the future possibilities and no more. From a phased & edge oriented last layer:

Look or infer the back edge. Perform alg-A that is a half a COLL alg. Alg-A permutes and orients the correct corner in the ULB position while only permuting the URB corner into place. Alg-A preserves phase (by not permuting the front or back edge). Meeting the three basic requirements: fix the ULB corner - permute the URB corner - preserve phase there would be 36 cases all I believe as low as 8-12(f). Some of them you know already.

After alg-A you would be left with solved or an F-perm for PLL. Nine recognizable corner orientation cases overlaid on these PLLs. Almost everything visible from the front. For the solved PLL you would could use some of the shorter pure corner orientation cases to finish the cube. For the F-Perm overlaid with corner orientation cases the minimum move count is 13-14(f). Here are some generators prove that second case. These are F-perms overlayed with headlights, chameleons, sunes, bowties.

Spoiler

F2 L2 B' F2 U B' R2 F D' B R2 B F' U' (14f*)
R2 D B' L2 D L2 D2 L2 F' D' F L2 B R2 (14f*)
R2 B' L2 F' D F L2 D2 L2 D' L2 B D' R2 (14f*)
R' U R U' R' U L' U' L U' F2 R' F2 R2 (14f*)
F U F R' D2 L B' L' D2 R2 F' R' U' F' (14f*)
R2 B U2 F R' F' U2 R2 U2 R U2 B' R' (13f*)
F U2 L2 D F' D' L2 B' U B U2 F' U (13f*)
R B U2 R' U2 R2 U2 F R F' U2 B' R2 (13f*)
L U2 R' U' R B2 D L D' B2 U2 L' U' (13f*)

 

[RR]

Hello how do you plan eoline in 15 seconds ? I can't do it. I need 30 seconds to plan my whole eoline