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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

I'm not very experienced with the wiki, but I think we should make a ZZF2L page and post some algorithms there, rather than linking to forum threads. It would be easier to find and it would look nicer. What do you think? Also, I (UnsolvedCypher) use ZZ as my main method.
 
ZZer said:
The hardest thing in ZZ solve is made optimal first block after EO.
This is the part of the solve which makes me sad...
Which pieces do you tracking during EO ?
Click to expand...

This video might help:
I'm personally not very good at this transition, but I imagine that you would (assuming you don't have to look at the line while solving it) look for potential pairs or blocks. It might help to slow down during EOLine to make the transition for fluid.
 
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ZZ CN with green/ blue.

Anyone know how this would work? I used to be a green/blue cross solver before I switched to ZZ, and now looking back on it I would like one of those colors to be added to my colors I can use. I have not seen any rules as far as EO is concerned.
 
Sahnguini said:
The problem is the EO rules. I'm wondering if anyone has them or not. Or if anyone else has more abstract ideas as to Edge detection and etc.
Click to expand...

Well, they are pretty simple and I recall seeing them written down.
If you solved green/blue crosses, then just solve green/blue EOlines/block on ZZ, bad edges don't flip from x2.


EDIT
http://cube.crider.co.uk/?p=eoline And here are the rules.
 
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Anyone know how this would work? I used to be a green/blue cross solver before I switched to ZZ, and now looking back on it I would like one of those colors to be added to my colors I can use. I have not seen any rules as far as EO is concerned.
Click to expand...

You can derive the rules from the definition of "wrong edge". It might take a while but it's very easy. The rules I talk about in my videos are just shortcuts.

For example, a shortcut is: "a white/yellow edge facing up is always correct"
You would adapt it to: "a blue/green edge facing up is always correct"

Both rules are derived from the general rule: "an up/down color facing up is always correct"
 
Ninja Storm said:
I think the problem would be finding which orientation gives the least amount of bad edges.

If you had a minute for inspection, this might be much better.
Click to expand...

You should only have to check 3 orientations: default, y rotation from default, and x rotation from default.

I'm pretty sure most proficient ZZers can determine quantity and location of all bad edges in their default orientation in ~1 second.

I'm confident that anyone who sets their mind to it could select an optimal ZZ orientation with respect to quantity and location of bad edges in <5 seconds consistently. Of course, they would then have to identify which z-rotation from that selected orientation is best with respect to line piece location, and which x2/y2 rotation from there is also best with respect to line piece location.

In the end, it's not impossible to identify the optimal solution orientation in 15 seconds of inspection. But it would certainly take a lot more effort than it's worth.

uvafan said:
Although I think Matt easily also averages sub20 with CNZZ, that is not who I was referring to.
Click to expand...

can I consistently sub-20 CNZZ...?
 
I keep getting discouraged by ZZ. I've been practicing EOLine for a while now, but in speedsolves I still suck at it. Also in the F2L stage, I'm pretty much lost half the time. So many pieces to watch out for. Then I'll make a pair or block, only to find out that the 3rd piece needed is in an awkward position, ultimately resulting in a terrible first block/pair in terms of time and moves.
I can't get even decent, I still avg above 25 most of the time, and some solves are slower than 35, if not 40.

When I then do an average of whatever using CFOP, I am usually doing better(sub 25 avg). Learning ZZ has helped me recognizing F2L pairs by splitting them into "good" and "bad" cases. The good cases being those that I encounter when doing ZZF2L. I see either "yes, solve normally" or "rotation/fancy trick required".

After all this time sent with ZZ, in the end the only times I like it is after EOline and 1 or 2 blocks/pairs solved, because from then on solving the last 2 pairs and ending up with edges oriented on the last layer is awesome, but everything before is extremely hard or frustrating for me.

Sometimes I just want to switch back to CFOP and get better at cross/F2l, and also learn to look ahead, it seems the time would be right for me.
I sometimes fell like I'm wasting my time which I could use to get better at CFOP..

I really don't know what to do :/
 
Hmm it's hard. I just did an avg100 with CFOP:

number of times: 100/100
best time: 17.234
worst time: 34.188

current avg5: 19.542 (σ = 1.92)
best avg5: 19.099 (σ = 0.23)

current avg12: 19.756 (σ = 1.71)
best avg12: 19.756 (σ = 1.71)

current avg100: 24.586 (σ = 3.81)
best avg100: 24.586 (σ = 3.81)

session avg: 24.586 (σ = 3.81)
session mean: 24.609

I can't believe I got an avg12 sub 20. Practising ZZ almost made me sub 20 with CFOP. It's awesome but frustrating at the same time :D
 
Nilsibert said:
I keep getting discouraged by ZZ. I've been practicing EOLine for a while now, but in speedsolves I still suck at it. Also in the F2L stage, I'm pretty much lost half the time. So many pieces to watch out for. Then I'll make a pair or block, only to find out that the 3rd piece needed is in an awkward position, ultimately resulting in a terrible first block/pair in terms of time and moves.
I can't get even decent, I still avg above 25 most of the time, and some solves are slower than 35, if not 40.

When I then do an average of whatever using CFOP, I am usually doing better(sub 25 avg). Learning ZZ has helped me recognizing F2L pairs by splitting them into "good" and "bad" cases. The good cases being those that I encounter when doing ZZF2L. I see either "yes, solve normally" or "rotation/fancy trick required".

After all this time sent with ZZ, in the end the only times I like it is after EOline and 1 or 2 blocks/pairs solved, because from then on solving the last 2 pairs and ending up with edges oriented on the last layer is awesome, but everything before is extremely hard or frustrating for me.

Sometimes I just want to switch back to CFOP and get better at cross/F2l, and also learn to look ahead, it seems the time would be right for me.
I sometimes fell like I'm wasting my time which I could use to get better at CFOP..

I really don't know what to do :/
Click to expand...
Like asmallkitten said you will not easily get that Aha moment using ZZ in a short time :)
 
RR said:
Like asmallkitten said you will not easily get that Aha moment using ZZ in a short time :)
Click to expand...

What do you avg with ZZ and what did you avg before switching? I'm still hanging around between CFOP and ZZ, trying to get sub 20. I know it takes time to get comfortable with it. But it seems like it's too hard to get an efficient ZZF2L because there's just too many things to look out for. I often end up having a bad ZZF2L. CFOP is "easier" because you can ignore the D edges. It's all about look ahead, pair after pair. In ZZ I can see an easy pair, but the Cross edges is in a bad location, making the pair "useless". The same goes for blocks.
Right now I'm training CFOP look ahead, very slowly getting comfortable with it.
It just seems to me that EOLine plus ZZF2L almost can't be really fast and efficient compared to a cross and 4 pairs.
I should have learned Roux from the start then I wouldn't have that problem :D
 
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