Seven Towns vs. Dayan - Color Scheme Copyright Infringment

[pi.cubed]

Anyone know Seven Towns' customer email address? I couldn't find it on their website.
I know it will probably make 0 difference, but I may as well try sending them an email about this. Maybe some other people who are actually good at writing letters could send one too.

Also, why are Dayan cubes considered 'fake'? I'm fairly certain they never claimed to be Rubik's Cubes.

 

[Cubenovice]

Read the 2005 ruling.

It's about the trademark color scheme / counterfeiting.
Change colorscheme and logo/images on packaging (schould not be the iconic image) and you're good for the trademark
Don't call it or present it as a "Rubik's cube" and you're good for counterfeiting

We also have this going on with products of the company I'm working for.
Unless they make a real copy incl our exact branding it will be very difficult to get them for "counterfeiting".
We've seen products with variations on our branding (using the second half of our brandname), same overall shapes and colors and there's little we can do...

In the last 10 years or so we've only been able to seize a few molds (and then they may just build another one and continue...)

As to the Seven towns page:
“For a number of years now, we have operated an ongoing strategy designed to stamp out all forms of counterfeiting of the iconic Rubik‟s Cube” says David
Hedley Jones, Seven Towns‟ Senior Vice President, Rubik‟s Brand.
Counterfeiting is very specific: trying to pass the copy of as the original product.
No such thing with the Dayan cubes that we buy via the online stores.
As I understand the 2005 ruling they may just replace the images by a scrambled cube and then it no longer looks like the trademarked image

As for the large shipments of seized cubes: I can image that these actually were branded Rubik's. And that some manufacturers are trying to get these into regular retail stores.

[speculation]
Now imagine that these counterfeit cubes were actually made by one of our typical speedsolving cube producers; in that case I can understand the agressive approach by SevenTowns.
[/speculation]

EDIT: just read the 2009 ruling...

WTF magic cube prevented entry because it has some colors the same as the Rubiks Trademark???
If this is still the current state of affairs that could mean that just just changing one color of the color scheme (as proposed earlier in this thread) would not suffice...

Really curious where this is going....

 

[Pixel 6]

From what I understand, and what was implied in the email I received, they were not counterfeit Rubiks cubes nor branded as so. I have asked for further details on the seizure, and will share the pertinent information I receive on the reply. Know that to protect the buyers and sellers anonymity, I only feel comfortable giving out so much information.

With that being said, it would not surprise me if it was a box of Dayan style cubes under no guise of being anything but a legitimate Chinese manufactured magic cube we're that all familiar with.

I also wouldn't expect customs to know the difference between a Rubiks branded cube, and a magic cube. If it's not coming from a Rubik's factory, to an authorized Rubik's distributor with paperwork of it's authenticity, I'd conclude customs assumes ALL 3x3 cubes are counterfeit / knockoffs and subject to seizure.

Solve a Mefferts, Fisher, or custom hand-built puzzle in public, and 10 out of 10 will assume it's a Rubik's brand puzzle.

- Pixel -

 

[peterbone]

http://www.rubiks.com/i/company/media_library/pdf/Web_142_RELEASE_Fakesroundup.pdf

I like how at the end of that Rubik's article they mention Erik's world record and Breandon winning the world championship, but don't mention that they used 'fake' cubes.

 

[Innocence]

I really would not mind if every cube was just shipped as a DIY. I hope that's what they'll eventually do.

 

[andyfreeman]

Anyone know Seven Towns' customer email address? I couldn't find it on their website.
I know it will probably make 0 difference, but I may as well try sending them an email about this. Maybe some other people who are actually good at writing letters could send one too.

Also, why are Dayan cubes considered 'fake'? I'm fairly certain they never claimed to be Rubik's Cubes.

It's on here, including David's email and his PAs

Interestingly it's a UK phone number

http://www.rubiks.com/i/company/media_library/pdf/Web_142_RELEASE_Fakesroundup.pdf

 

[TimMc]

Are only bulk orders of 500+ being blocked at customs? What's the extent of this? Are single unit orders from drop-shipping sites being blocked? Will this just cut out the middle-middle-local-man and encourage buyers to purchase directly from the middle-man in China?

EDIT: I'm just wondering if this is having much impact on the consumers. Obviously it'll impact resellers...

Tim.

 

[Kirjava]

Some people forget about how SevenTowns actually does support the community.

 

[kinch2002]

Are only bulk orders of 500+ being blocked at customs? What's the extent of this? Are single unit orders from drop-shipping sites being blocked? Will this just cut out the middle-middle-local-man and encourage buyers to purchase directly from the middle-man in China?

EDIT: I'm just wondering if this is having much impact on the consumers. Obviously it'll impact resellers...

Tim.

Last time I talked to Dave at Seventowns was a few months ago. He said that they try to block large orders, but weren't concerned about the odd one or 2 that people buy.

Some people forget about how SevenTowns actually does support the community.

Indeed. UK competitions couldn't happen without their help, and iirc they sponsor the major championships too. The guys at Seventowns are actually really nice irl, and are simply trying to protect their own products. Can't blame them for that really. Sure, it could mean that Chinese cubes aren't as readily available, but we might just have to deal with it.

As for people who get annoyed that Rubik's brands are always terrible, they should consider that 'terrible' is a subjective word. 99% of their market is the general public, who put short and long-term durability as a priority. So that's what Rubik's base their cubes around.

 

[Chrisandstuff]

Ok well this kinda has me worried ive been tracking an order from magiccubemall and I have a guhong and a megaminx to come in. Well its been in NY for the past 4 days. I dont think that they will be taking a single small order like this but it has me worried since it hasnt moved from NY since it flew in from Honk Kong a few days ago.

 

[Godmil]

As for people who get annoyed that Rubik's brands are always terrible, they should consider that 'terrible' is a subjective word. 99% of their market is the general public, who put short and long-term durability as a priority. So that's what Rubik's base their cubes around.

Durability is one thing, but remember how prevalent 'Rubik's Wrist' was. Some new Rubik's brands, without being taken apart, cleaned and lubed, pose a significant health risk for even moderate use.

 

[radmin]

I wouldn't mind seeing DIYs not come with stickers at all.
I always replace them anyway.

 

[coldplay]

Thanks Patrick for reopening this thread. People, please keep it civil.

So... new news, and some observations.

I placed an order for cubes earlier today... I received an email back about my new order of Dayan cubes, and found out that the supplier I get my cubes from had a customer of his get a large order of +500 cubes get taken at customs.

I can order cubes, but either as DIY or I have to take the risk of them getting seized. Even as DIY kits there is a risk of not getting my cubes in.

It looks like many cube stores in china are taking action to protect themselves. Many have taken assembled 3x3x3's off their sites. Some have removed only the black cubes, while others will sell assembled cubes, only not stickered. One store took every type of assembled 3x3 off of their site to protect their business.

This is not about starting a flame war against Seven Towns, Verdes, Dayan etc. It's about what's happening to our community.

Our beloved Dayan cubes are being considered to be knock-off / counterfeit products, and if the big companies go against them, (Rubik's / Seven Towns for example) this may in fact stick.

So, If cubing stores can no longer safely purchase cubes in bulk... what happens to these stores, our competitions, and the community.

If Dayan, or any other manufacturer for that matter can no longer get their products outside their country, what happens to the rest of us? Why would they bother making cubes, if there's a risk their company might not be able to sell them?
I'm not sure how to go about approaching this... but what happens when say, every US based store can no longer sell 3x3 cubes other than the Rubik's brand?

We've seen some hits in regards to our cubing world... but it looks like we've now hit up against the multi-billion dollar Seven Towns company. What can we possibly do to keep the real R&D on cubes happening, and companies like Dayan producing real speed cubes?

Also, if you own a cube store here in the US, I'd like to hear your stance on what you plan to do to keep your company alive and cubes available.

- Pixel -

Further reading on customs and Rubik's:

http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=477375&ac=pr
http://www.rubiks.com/i/company/media_library/pdf/Web_142_RELEASE_Fakesroundup.pdf
http://rulings.cbp.gov/detail.asp?ru=h027746&ac=pr

Wow. I saw the PDF on Rubik's website and it's so heavily opinionated and biased. This is absolutely ridiculous. Rubik's just doesn't care about the speed cubing community at all. They're arrogant and make cubes that nobody speed cubes with, and then they go and try to crush the competition that is better than them.

And then, they make the general public believe that our beloved DaYan cubes are knockoffs. Bloody knockoffs. Also, when the patent for the 3x3 expired years ago! DaYans are not KOs. And suppose they were – then Seven Towns would have a reason to do so but still, people should be allowed to use what cubes they wish to use.

I have giant respect for Ernö Rubik. His original idea made all of this possible. But his company? I don't like it. Not one bit.

- Ky

 

[andyfreeman]

Some people forget about how SevenTowns actually does support the community.

That may be the case BUT on the otherside of the coin.

1) Their cubes are useless for speedcubing without modding. OK, I know FZ did a sub-10 but that's not the point. Therefore there is a market for speedcubes: people buy them and want them to speedcube.

2) If they are blocking speedcubes from entering the market then they are damaging the speedcubing community: particularly if all eventually become blocked. The whole reason that there are dayans, shengens etc out there are because people buy them. If there wasn't a market, dayan and shengen wouldn't exist. Simple. See (1)

3) Without speedcubes, I wonder what would happen to speedcube comps? Would people bother any more? Therefore they wouldn't even have anything to sponsor. Imagine you could only attend the event with a Rubik's cube!!!

4) People see other people cubing: it's free advertisment. Do they know its a Zhanchi? No, as far as they are concerned it's a Rubik's. They MIGHT think, "I want to try that". So where do they go? To a store and buy a Rubik's. I've inspired a number of people to buy a cube or at least try it. Rubik's win. The only way they lose is because they don't have a decent speedcube so if/when people want to take up speedcubing they are going to go and get a decent speedcube from elsewhere.


Their cube gives me bad wrists. I do use my Rubik's for practicing F2L however because of this: it forces me to go slow otherwise it hurts. Otherwise, it's pretty much an ornament on my desk at work.

All in all, thank you to ST for your product for introducing me to cubing. And thank you to Mr R for inventing the cube from which a lot of decent speedcubes have been spawned. But please leave the speedcubes alone so I can get on with speedcubing.....

Now HERE'S a thought: are V-CUBE going to get their V3 cubes blocked?????????????

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

Wow. I saw the PDF on Rubik's website and it's so heavily opinionated and biased. This is absolutely ridiculous. Rubik's just doesn't care about the speed cubing community at all. They're arrogant and make cubes that nobody speed cubes with, and then they go and try to crush the competition that is better than them.

And then, they make the general public believe that our beloved DaYan cubes are knockoffs. Bloody knockoffs. Also, when the patent for the 3x3 expired years ago! DaYans are not KOs. And suppose they were – then Seven Towns would have a reason to do so but still, people should be allowed to use what cubes they wish to use.

I have giant respect for Ernö Rubik. His original idea made all of this possible. But his company? I don't like it. Not one bit.

- Ky

...

Let me break this down for you.

1) Rubik's do care about thew speedcubing community, they still sponsor several competitions, and havent stopped all sales of other cubes.
2)They didnt make the public believe that Dayan cubes are KO's, they just said that there are companies out there tring to sell cubes as Rubik's brand, when they aren't.
3)The patent has expired, but the trademark hasnt, so they have no chioce but to still enforce it otherwise they lose it, and would then lose money to the companies making fake rubik's brand cubes.
4)People can still use any cube, I don't see them coing round people's houses and taking cubes away, and you can still buy them.

TL;DR:
They are enforcing there trademark, not trying to bring down the community.

(Slightly unrelated)
What is it with people attacking companies atm?!?
First V-cubes and now Seven-towns. Just chill out guys, until they actually start doing stuff, raging about them isnt going to help. Also, raging against a company is a great way for them to stop caring about the community.
Seriously, relax about it.

 

[andyfreeman]

...

Let me break this down for you.

1) Rubik's do care about thew speedcubing community, they still sponsor several competitions, and havent stopped all sales of other cubes.

No, not directly. But your uneducated customs official isn't going to know the difference between a knock off and a Dayan

And no, they aren't going to take cubes away from people.

The problem is this: *IF* this becomes a large scale issue, then shops, online or whatever, who specialise in twisty puzzles, who buy LARGE quantities of cubes from SPEEDCUBE manufacturers to sell in their shops risk not having anything to sell because customs have confiscated it. And what happens to shops that don't have product to sell....?

Don't forget these cubes have been paid for: the owners can't get their money back.

This has happened: hence the resurrection of the topic

Copyright/ trademark infringment is a hot topic right now.

Hence it's right for some people to be a little twitchy right now.

People have the right to voice their opinions: who knows, if we didn't there might not be any Guhongs, Zhanchis and the like around now?

 

[pjk]

This is a big deal. Getting the speedcubes that we all love and enjoy may not be as possible in the near future, and the prices may soon go up significantly. It is understandable that Rubik's wants to protect its brand, but preventing all Chinese cubes from being sold in the US seems a bit out there. Dayan has significantly improved the quality of their puzzles (which is something that few other companies have done - including Rubik's), hence why they have been successful among the cubing community. A few things that I'm curious about - Verdes just came out with a new 3x3 speedcube that is strikingly similar to the Dayan 3x3's. Did Verdes buy the expired Rubik's patent and improve on it? Did they take the design of the new cube from Dayan, or did Dayan take it from them? Who is enforcing the seizure of larger shipments of puzzles, Verdes or SevenTowns? A statement from Verdes of SevenTowns would be great so we can clear up any confusion.

I like how at the end of that Rubik's article they mention Erik's world record and Breandon winning the world championship, but don't mention that they used 'fake' cubes.

I also found it a bit funny, even though you wouldn't expect them to say that. One thing that is odd is that SevenTowns has supported all these local competitions, and they are blatantly aware that every puzzle being used in the competition is from China (and likely wasn't made by Rubiks), but they don't say anything. Obviously they want to go after the producers and not the consumers, but I don't think they realize how big of an effect this will have on the community if all the speedcubes we use are no longer available.

 

[andyfreeman]

This is a big deal. Getting the speedcubes that we all love and enjoy may not be as possible in the near future, and the prices may soon go up significantly. It is understandable that Rubik's wants to protect its brand, but preventing all Chinese cubes from being sold in the US seems a bit out there.

Exactly my point and my concerns too.

Did Verdes buy the expired Rubik's patent and improve on it?

As far as I'm aware patents don't work like that. Once the patent has expired, that's it: anyone can make what you have patented. Having said that, anyone can make your patented design while it's still valid: it's up to you to put the time and effort into defending it in court etc. and stop them from continuing. You can of course get all costs back, but it's a long and arduous process.

Even then, patents aren't the be-all-end-all: Say Verdes at the time invented a 3x3 cube at the same time as Rubik that was for arguments sake, hypothetically, coreless. Both could file for patents and have them approved and be immune from one another simply because the two are technically totally different mechanisms.

That's the beauty of patents: they protect you to assist in preventing someone from copying your design exactly, yet still allow ingenutiy to prosper, which is great for competitors.

Verdes patent itself was for a design of a puzzle that could have any number of layers. He couldn't have just taken the Rubik's patent and reapplied for it with minor improvements, it needs to be something major. Which is what he did.

Did they take the design of the new cube from Dayan, or did Dayan take it from them?

That has been bugging me for a long time too. I'd love to know the answer to that one. I suspect we'll never know.

 

[coldplay]

This is a big deal. Getting the speedcubes that we all love and enjoy may not be as possible in the near future, and the prices may soon go up significantly. It is understandable that Rubik's wants to protect its brand, but preventing all Chinese cubes from being sold in the US seems a bit out there. Dayan has significantly improved the quality of their puzzles (which is something that few other companies have done - including Rubik's), hence why they have been successful among the cubing community. A few things that I'm curious about - Verdes just came out with a new 3x3 speedcube that is striking similar to the Dayan 3x3's. Did Verdes buy the expired Rubik's patent and improve on it? Did they take the design of the new cube from Dayan, or did Dayan take it from them? Who is enforcing the seizure of larger shipments of puzzles, Verdes or SevenTowns? A statement from Verdes of SevenTowns would be great so we can clear up any confusion.


I also found it a bit funny, even though you wouldn't expect them to say that. One thing that is odd is that SevenTowns has supported all these local competitions, and they are blatantly aware that every puzzle being used in the competition is from China (and likely wasn't made by Rubiks), but they don't say anything. Obviously they want to go after the producers and not the consumers, but I don't think they realize how big of an effect this will have on the community if all the speedcubes we use are no longer available.

Well, guess it's officially time to go underground. At least until Seven Towns comes to their senses.

 

[shelley]

Have cube parts shipped separately. The layman customs officer isn't going to confuse a bag of edge pieces for a fake Rubik's cube.