Why I am now Color Netural

[yockee]

Ok, so since David deleted the last thing I said, it now looks like (to those who have read it, mostly Thom) that I implied that Thom was a destructive force. So, sorry to be off topic here, but I needed to make sure that the point I was trying to make was clear, so things weren't taken the wrong way. So Thom, check your messages. Sorry Teller.

By the way (Teller), I saw the post before it was deleted, about you cubing before everyone was born... I'm just wondering, how old are you, dude? Hahahaha. I mean, I had a cube back in 1980, but I was only 3, hahaha.

 

[somerandomkidmike]

I think I'm gonna try out colour neutrality, just because I'm a little bored with cubing. Plus, the part of my solve that's the most inconsistent is my first layer. This original post has convinced me that it would be a good thing to do.

 

[teller]

By the way (Teller), I saw the post before it was deleted, about you cubing before everyone was born... I'm just wondering, how old are you, dude? Hahahaha. I mean, I had a cube back in 1980, but I was only 3, hahaha.

LOL...I feel your gray hair, dude. I am 40...I solved my first cube when I was about 10, using a beginner's method that nobody uses anymore. Some details are here from when I first joined in 2008.

And...history is not going to be kind to those who declared a broken and useless definition to be correct, and embraced by a non-existent phantom majority that in reality doesn't see any distinction. I would never shoot a CN F2L video because I want the fixed cross people to get the full benefit, but I am tempted to shoot a practice session and wait for the first fixed cross person to complain, only to tell them that the geniuses at speedsolving would like them to know that the overwhelming majority of cubers do not consider it color-neutral, and that they will just have to deal with the contradiction.

 

[jakkspeedcuber]

Here is all the sub10 cubers using fridrich, and look how many there are that are color neutral, really not that much. So,IMO, you can easily be as good as people color neutral, and it doesn't worth the time of adaptation. But, we should all have started being color neutral.

1. Feliks Zemdegs : Color neutral
2. Piti Pichedpan : White cross
3. Giovanni Contardi : Orange cross
4. Rowe Hessler : Color neutral
5. Kanneti Sae Han :Orange cross (or red if there is an obvious xcross
6. Yumu Tabuchi : Blue cross(japanese scheme)
7. Asia Konvittayayotin : Opposite white / yellow
8. Mats Valk : Blue cross
9. Cornelius Dieckmann : White cross
10. Erik Akkersdijk : Opposite white/yellow
11. Robert Yau : White cross
12. Michał Pleskowicz : Opposite white yellow
13. Mulun Yin :
14. Nipat Charoenpholphant : Opposite white/yellow
15. Milán Baticz : Opposite white/yellow
16. Dan Cohen : White cross
17. Morten Arborg : Color neutral
18. Stefan Huber : White cross
19. Kailong Li : White cross
20. Vincent Hartanto Utomo : White cross
21. Sebastian Weyer : White cross
22. Tomasz Żołnowski : White cross (left)
23. Joar Mellström : White cross
24. Breandan Vallance : White cross
25. Haowei Fan : White cross
26. Phillip Espinoza : White cross (left)

 

[teller]

@jakk Thank you for posting that. Evidence is always our friend, no matter which side it favors.

But I suspect the white/yellow is under-reported.

 

[Anthony]

11. Robert Yau : White cross

Does Rob stick to white cross now? I seem to remember him being CN and I definitely remember a video of him doing an orange cross avg12.

 

[Daniel Wu]

But I suspect the white/yellow is under-reported.

I agree with this. I'm a bit surprised. Opposite colors is not all that difficult to use because the colors for F2L are basically the same so I would think more people would use it.

 

[JyH]

24. Breandan Vallance : White cross

Breandan uses yellow.

 

[jskyler91]

Just because you can be fast without color neutrality doesn't meant that you should do it. Color neutrality doesn't just save you time in your cross, it helps your cross to f2l transition (easier cross makes it easier to look ahead into first f2l pair), increases you likelihood of getting x crosses (more crosses to choose from, so better chance) and alleviates the stress of having a "bad cross" which allows your solves to be more relaxed and fluid.

To me, being color fixed is like quite simply laziness, the only advantage of it is that you feel "more comfortable" during your solves which makes your think you can look ahead better. I have been color neutral for over 4 month's now and I have to say that I have absolutely no regrets about switching. I feel completely comfortable and able to look ahead on any cross. Sure it messed me up for like 3 weeks, but after that three weeks my times started to drop like crazy.

Color neutrality is an investment which will pay out later when everyone else has plateaued and you are still speeding up. I always say it is better to be incredibly fast later and ok now than to be faster than i am now but ok later. Just my two cents.

Also, I think it is important that we consider that of the cubers in the top 5 for singles, at least 4 of them are non color fixed and 2 are color neutral (I don't know what Che-ting chu is, he may be too.).

 

[Weston]

The list of all the official sub 10 cubers using Fridrich isn't really evidence for anything.


As for what I think about being color neutral, I think there are more interesting and beneficial things to work on.

To me, being color fixed is like quite simply laziness, the only advantage of it is that you feel "more comfortable" during your solves which makes your think you can look ahead better.

Or is color neutrality being lazy for not wanting to look ahead on a slightly longer cross solution?

 

[jskyler91]

The list of all the official sub 10 cubers using Fridrich isn't really evidence for anything.


As far as what I think about being color neutral, I think there are more interesting and beneficial things to work on.

True, but the great part about color neutrality is that it doesn't actually require much work; you just start doing it. You can still practice other things while practicing color neutrality. Especially if you are just doing slow solves to develop new skills or habits.

Or is color neutrality being lazy for not wanting to look ahead on a slightly longer cross solution?

The laziness I am referring to is in the fact that people who started off as color fixed are either to lazy or too stubborn to switch. I have a very simple cubing mantra "Only Do the Best"; I don't waste my time with bad habits or things that feel more comfortable but have less potential. There is no escaping the fact that color neutrality is better assuming that it is perfectly implemented. If you have two people who are exactly the same and they both learn the same things at the same time in the same way, the one who is color neutral is going to be faster in the long run because he will have better crosses and f2l transitions due to that.

The only arguments I have ever heard for being color fixed that actually holds up is that it makes predicting f2l easier do to familiarity, which is true in the short run, but as time progresses becomes less and less so. I have timed myself on all 6 cross colors and I am almost exactly the same time. My fastest was Blue cross (I was originally white cross) and the others were within a second or so which isn't surprising considering I have a 1.5 second SD. Do you have any other arguments for being color fixed? I would honestly be interested to hear them.

 

[Shortey]

11. Robert Yau : White cross
17. Morten Arborg : Color neutral
24. Breandan Vallance : White cross

wat

 

[Godmil]

Deleted

You can actually delete your posts.

I believe the original argument for using white cross was that since it stands out most it makes it easier to spot corners during the F2L, then when you come to OLL you use the second easiest to spot colour (yellow) to identify your case.
The list of top cubes is really interesting, I didn't realise there were so many blue/red/orange cross cubers up there, it could be a case where evidence trumps theory and suggests there isn't a 'best' colour.

 

[Kirjava]

And...history is not going to be kind to those who declared a broken and useless definition to be correct, and embraced by a non-existent phantom majority that in reality doesn't see any distinction. I would never shoot a CN F2L video because I want the fixed cross people to get the full benefit, but I am tempted to shoot a practice session and wait for the first fixed cross person to complain, only to tell them that the geniuses at speedsolving would like them to know that the overwhelming majority of cubers do not consider it color-neutral, and that they will just have to deal with the contradiction.

You are extremely deluded. Sarcastically calling someone who disagrees with you a genius is another childish move.

Feel free to keep erroneously telling people you are colour neutral. You're just setting yourself up to disappoint people when they find out that you're actually much faster when using a fixed colour. At best it's a poor interpretation of terminology. At worst it's an outright lie.

It's possible to do colour neutral solves without being colour neutral. This is what I think you're confused about.

 

[Godmil]

Mummy, Daddy, please stop fighting. <sobs>

 

[Escher]

So much of this thread is so damn fail.

1) One point that some people forget to consider is the possibility that for some people being colour neutral will always be confusing. Mentally 'toggling' between which colours to look for during f2l etc might actually be a big hindrance for some people.

2) People really underestimate how difficult and demotivating it is to switch. During switching, your times on each colour cross will begin to tend towards another. You get significantly slower at your previous fixed cross colour(s).

3) Statistics mean nothing with this kind of debate, just as with methods. If one followed statistics, you could quite happily say that White cross Fridrich was the worst method by far. Look how many slow people there are who use it!

4) You are not 'neutral' in any sense of the word unless you have no bias. This applies to cross colours, and if you have to practice at colour neutrality then you are not colour neutral.

5) I think pretty much all popular teaching media on Youtube should change to make a very big note of/promote colour neutrality. The negatives when you start are non-existent, and the positives are bigger and bigger the faster you get. It's much harder for me to consistently spot 1st/2nd pair in CFOP (and guarantee a good solve) than it is for Feliks.

6) The 'ideal' speedcuber would be colour neutral, amongst other skills. As in many skill-based sports, it's a good idea to work towards an 'ubermensch' as long as you take an intelligent and dedicated line with it.

7) Stop bickering about semantics.

 

[teller]

2) People really underestimate how difficult and demotivating it is to switch. During switching, your times on each colour cross will begin to tend towards another. You get significantly slower at your previous fixed cross colour(s).

This didn't happen to me...I found my solve enhanced, and now I'm seeing all kinds of things I overlooked before in F2L. More than the cross-to-F2L transition, I was promoting this as a benefit. At least one other person has confirmed it. But it may be one of those things were mileage varies.

7) Stop bickering about semantics.

Yeah, I failed. Should never have responded to any of that stuff. It always degenerates into who can get the last word in. I can do better.

 

[jskyler91]

So much of this thread is so damn fail.

1) One point that some people forget to consider is the possibility that for some people being colour neutral will always be confusing. Mentally 'toggling' between which colours to look for during f2l etc might actually be a big hindrance for some people.

Maybe for a few, but I would say that most would adapt to it over time and find, just as teller and i have, that it is quite easy.

"4) You are not 'neutral' in any sense of the word unless you have no bias. This applies to cross colours, and if you have to practice at colour neutrality then you are not colour neutral."

This is quite simply not true. Color neutrality is one of those things you can do naturally or that you can acquire. If you are color fixed then becoming color neutral will take some practice because you will have to get out of the habit and relearn how to look for pieces. As long as being color neutral doesn't in any way hold back your times then I say you are color neutral. The biggest test of whether or not you are truly color neutral is if you can decrease your times after becoming color neutral. Again, I switched and it would be false for anyone to say that I am not color neutral.

"5) I think pretty much all popular teaching media on Youtube should change to make a very big note of/promote colour neutrality. The negatives when you start are non-existent, and the positives are bigger and bigger the faster you get. It's much harder for me to consistently spot 1st/2nd pair in CFOP (and guarantee a good solve) than it is for Feliks. "

I completely agree and I do this in my speedcubing class at UCB. Also, I am pretty sure that Felik's switched to color neutrality pretty late in the game, so if he can do it so can you.

 

[Kirjava]

This is quite simply not true. Color neutrality is one of those things you can do naturally or that you can acquire. If you are color fixed then becoming color neutral will take some practice because you will have to get out of the habit and relearn how to look for pieces.

You misunderstand. If you are practising to achieve it you are not there yet. He didn't mean that if you have achieved it through practise that it doesn't count.

 

[Anthony]

Also, I am pretty sure that Felik's switched to color neutrality pretty late in the game, so if he can do it so can you.

The very latest Feliks may have switched to being CN is ~3 months after he began cubing (as evident from this video), but he probably started beginning his solves with any cross color before that - possibly from when he first began.