Group solving, and case reduction.

[Jorghi]

I've been recently learning how edge orientation works in zz's EOline. But I noticed that it doesn't really lower the number of f2l cases. In fact, its only 2 less cases! Is there a way to lower the f2l case count even more?

 

[Erzz]

Orientate the (your line colour here) corners?
You shouldn't use F2L algs in ZZ though...

 

[uberCuber]

But I noticed that it doesn't really lower the number of f2l cases. In fact, its only 2 less cases!

This is completely wrong. Half of the cases are eliminated, the half that have misoriented edges and require either rotations or non-<R,U> moves.

 

[Jorghi]

Please read the zz wiki.

 

[uberCuber]

I have read it plenty of times in the past; where does it say that exactly 2 F2L cases are eliminated?

And FYI, I can average sub-18 with ZZ, so I have a bit of experience with the method.

 

[cmhardw]

Jorghi, what are you defining as an "F2L case" ? Can you list the 2 cases that you do not see when solving F2L after EOLine that you referred to in your first post?

This might clear up some of the confusion.

 

[Jorghi]

It says f2l has 0-40 algs for zz.

cfop has 42

 

[uberCuber]

It says f2l has 0-40 algs

The number 40 includes mirrors. If you choose a specific slot, let's say the FR slot, there are only ~20 cases that can happen for that particular slot. You can see this because if you look at the F2L cases listed in the wiki (which are all shown with the slot in FR), half of them cannot be solved with <R,U> and require either a rotation/d move or F moves; but you can always solve it with <R,U(,L)> (without rotations, d moves, or F moves) in ZZ.

 

[mr. giggums]

Also most people who use ZZ as there main method block build so they don't use CFOP f2l algs, in fact they rarely use any algs for f2l (with the exception of F2LL and MGLS and other similar last slot alg sets).

 

[uberCuber]

30 of the 42 alg are 2-gen.

Apparently you didn't read the part about rotations. Cases 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 29, 31, 35, 36, 38, 41, and 42 (a total of 21 cases, exactly half of them) all contain one of the following things:

1. y rotation
2. d move
3. F move

None of those 3 things should be used in ZZ (with a couple special exceptions regarding F)


EDIT: Jorghi, seriously, deleting your posts does not help anything, as the quote is still in this post anyway.

 

[Jorghi]

Yeah? 30 of the 42 algs are 2-gen. Does ZZ have 42 algs? Thats exactly why I posted that, seems you are raging for self-righteousness.

Edit:

Also most people who use ZZ as there main method block build so they don't use CFOP f2l algs, in fact they rarely use any algs for f2l (with the exception of F2LL and MGLS and other similar last slot alg sets).

Wouldn't it be better to just go OLL instead of MGLS? Its double the cases and only .2 twists more on average.

 

[uberCuber]

Does ZZ have 42 algs? Don't know what you are trying to saying besides the obvious.

No, ZZ does not have 42 algs, regardless of what you mean by that.

You were trying to say the number of cases is barely reduced, and I explained to you how the number is actually reduced by half. If that is "the obvious" then you would have understood it before, and therefore wouldn't have made this thread.

Apparently you don't get it yet, so I will sum it up a bit differently:

During F2L of a CFOP solve, there are 42 cases, as we both know.
As you have pointed out that the wiki says, the F2L of ZZ can have 40 cases.
The 42 cases of CFOP do not include any mirrors at all.
The 40 cases of ZZ do include mirrors, and so should not be compared directly with the number 42 associated with CFOP.

 

[Jorghi]

No, ZZ does not have 42 algs, regardless of what you mean by that.

You were trying to say the number of cases is barely reduced, and I explained to you how the number is actually reduced by half. If that is "the obvious" then you would have understood it before, and therefore wouldn't have made this thread.

Apparently you don't get it yet, so I will sum it up a bit differently:

During F2L of a CFOP solve, there are 42 cases, as we both know.
As you have pointed out that the wiki says, the F2L of ZZ can have 40 cases.
The 42 cases of CFOP do not include any mirrors at all.
The 40 cases of ZZ do include mirrors, and so should not be compared directly with the number 42 associated with CFOP.

It says f2l has 0-40 algs for zz.

cfop has 42

Btw I quickly glanced the ZZ wiki, never thought it included mirrors.

 

[uberCuber]

Wouldn't it be better to just go OLL instead of MGLS? Its double the cases and only .2 twists more on average.

If we were still talking about ZZ, MGLS would be a lot more that double the cases since there are only 7 OLLs in ZZ. If you are talking about Fridrich-style solving, then yes it would be about double the cases. Either way, MGLS has its pros and cons, and one of those cons is of course the heaping number of CLS algs. It's really one of those personal preference things, but for a new cuber like you it generally wouldn't be recommended to tackle that large an alg set even if its pros were better than they currently are.


And it makes me happy that you understand the original topic now.

 

[Jorghi]

It also makes me happy that I still count a mirror as a separate algorithm.

 

[uberCuber]

If you are looking at mirrors, then CFOP has more than 42 algorithms (unless you do a lot more rotations than are necessary so that the slot you are solving is always in FR)

 

[Jorghi]

If you are looking at mirrors, then CFOP has more than 42 algorithms (unless you do a lot more rotations than are necessary so that the slot you are solving is always in FR)

33 to 41 are mirrors as well.
http://www.cubewhiz.com/f2l.html

Edit: And if you scroll up many are mirrors as well. Such as, 3, 6, 11-14, 20-23

MAKING only 22 cases ignoring the solved ones.

 

[uberCuber]

In that post I was mostly talking in terms of F/B mirrors, not R/L ones.


Though the more I think about it, I am becoming unsure of where the number 40 on the wiki even comes from (due to those same F/B mirrors I just mentioned).

 

[Jorghi]

In that post I was mostly talking in terms of F/B mirrors, not R/L ones.


Though the more I think about it, I am becoming unsure of where the number 40 on the wiki even comes from (due to those same F/B mirrors I just mentioned).

No, ZZ does not have 42 algs, regardless of what you mean by that.

You were trying to say the number of cases is barely reduced, and I explained to you how the number is actually reduced by half. If that is "the obvious" then you would have understood it before, and therefore wouldn't have made this thread.

Apparently you don't get it yet, so I will sum it up a bit differently:

During F2L of a CFOP solve, there are 42 cases, as we both know.
As you have pointed out that the wiki says, the F2L of ZZ can have 40 cases.
The 42 cases of CFOP do not include any mirrors at all.
The 40 cases of ZZ do include mirrors, and so should not be compared directly with the number 42 associated with CFOP.

Oh? You sure? Sounded like no mirrors to me.

 

[jskyler91]

The point here Jorghi is that ZB limits the amount of cases you will encounter and the ones it leaves behind are dramatically easier. May I ask what made you switch to ZB? Were you stuck in Fridich or were you just interested in learning it? Because, from what i know, ZB is going to be harder to get faster at until you learn a great deal of algs. Plus ZB requires a lot of look ahead, which you have mentioned you dislike.

I am not saying that you shouldn't experiment, but you might get frustrated if you switch now as your times will go down for a while. ZB is one of those "I want to be faster in a few months or even years" type of things. If I were you I would concentrate on Fridich for a bit longer and get better at look ahead.