Daniel Wu
Premium Member
[wiki]EJF2L[/wiki]
[Help Thread] Petrus Discussion and Help thread
- Thread starter Cyrus C.
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- help with petrus petrus speed
ErikJ
Veteran
someone needs to edit the page for EJF2L. it talks about it like a last slot method.
vcuber13
Veteran
theres also wv and pll which could be fast for petrus
ErikJ
Veteran
winter variation is slower than OLL. I know a few cases that are fast but for the most part they are pretty nasty algorithms.
CriminallyVulgar
Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2010
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- 8
<*****TO GET TO THE POINT, SKIP HALF WAY DOWN*****>
I hate myself a bit already for resurrecting a 3-month-dead thread as a first post on the forum, but hey, what you gonna do, I have questions and I Petrus.
I started cubing about 3-4 years ago, but never really took it massively seriously, at the time I never broke 1 minute and had an awful cube and no intention of spending money on a better one. On a whim, I bought a Type-AV cube online, just for something to do for the last month of my summer, thinking it'd waste a minute anytime I had to wait for something... but damn, that thing turned so damn smooth I fell in love (we fall out occasionally when it *frequently* pops pieces).
But yeah, to the point. Back in the day, I wanted to learn, and I stumbled across a few methods, and Petrus immediately appealed to me (gradual scaling ftw). I memorised exactly 4 algs (Niklas, Sune, Allan, and Arne (too simple not to, really)) had a PB of 1:00.66, normally averaging 1:10 or so.
After starting back up, I averaged about 1:15, but very quickly broke a minute, and continued improving to having a PB of 41.45 and a best average-of-12 of 53.08 at the moment, with the help of learning Bert, Double and Triple Sune, and Eve.
I'm still improving, but before I get too heavily stuck in my ways, I want to know your thoughts on a few things:
I suck at the block building. Unless it's supposed to take 30 seconds for F2L, in which case I'm rockin this method. I'm colour neutral (seems better in the long run, I don't really know though), so I never know what corner I'm going to expand to after 2x2x2. Sometimes I'll have a quick scan and spot a 2x1x1 and be into EO within 2 or 3 seconds, but usually it takes a good 5-10 seconds after a 3-5 second 2x2x2. Also, after EO, I tend to fumble about a bit joining the last CE-pair to finish F2L, but I think I'll be able to fix that with time. So, should I stick to colour-neutrality? Or should I declare colour-war on a certain corner for the sake of a speedy 2x2x3?
As the LL goes, I kind of suck at that too: I've often spent a solid 5 seconds trying to figure out which corners share a colour, and which ones are in the right place. For this reason, I can't see much advantage in changing method, as other than this, my LL is fairly quick - usually 10-12s or so, rarely much more than that unless I mess up an algorithm (using Eve when I need a Niklas, or worse, nothing -.-). I see that most Petrus users don't use the order he outlines, but I'm uncreative and lazy, so do. Is there any use in switching LL method if I can't spot a simple permutation? Don't most kind of rely on that? Plus, I chose the Petrus method because it had minimal algorithms needed for good times. Like I said, I'm lazy, and I'd rather not change that if I don't have to: learning 40+ or however many algs for a method doesn't exactly appeal. I'll do it if I have to, but I won't be thrilled for the first fortnight...
Just a wondering now, but why does the Petrus lack popularity so bad? Despite my whining about it, the block building makes so much damn sense to me, and the EO pre-LL strikes me as a great effort saver, though I suppose you could work it into Fridrich if you wanted.
I know that was incredibly wordy, and I apologise. I'm Scottish, and that means I never use 5 words when 10 will do.
tl;dnr - colour neutrality, yea or nay? better LL methods?
I hate myself a bit already for resurrecting a 3-month-dead thread as a first post on the forum, but hey, what you gonna do, I have questions and I Petrus.
I started cubing about 3-4 years ago, but never really took it massively seriously, at the time I never broke 1 minute and had an awful cube and no intention of spending money on a better one. On a whim, I bought a Type-AV cube online, just for something to do for the last month of my summer, thinking it'd waste a minute anytime I had to wait for something... but damn, that thing turned so damn smooth I fell in love (we fall out occasionally when it *frequently* pops pieces).
But yeah, to the point. Back in the day, I wanted to learn, and I stumbled across a few methods, and Petrus immediately appealed to me (gradual scaling ftw). I memorised exactly 4 algs (Niklas, Sune, Allan, and Arne (too simple not to, really)) had a PB of 1:00.66, normally averaging 1:10 or so.
After starting back up, I averaged about 1:15, but very quickly broke a minute, and continued improving to having a PB of 41.45 and a best average-of-12 of 53.08 at the moment, with the help of learning Bert, Double and Triple Sune, and Eve.
I'm still improving, but before I get too heavily stuck in my ways, I want to know your thoughts on a few things:
I suck at the block building. Unless it's supposed to take 30 seconds for F2L, in which case I'm rockin this method. I'm colour neutral (seems better in the long run, I don't really know though), so I never know what corner I'm going to expand to after 2x2x2. Sometimes I'll have a quick scan and spot a 2x1x1 and be into EO within 2 or 3 seconds, but usually it takes a good 5-10 seconds after a 3-5 second 2x2x2. Also, after EO, I tend to fumble about a bit joining the last CE-pair to finish F2L, but I think I'll be able to fix that with time. So, should I stick to colour-neutrality? Or should I declare colour-war on a certain corner for the sake of a speedy 2x2x3?
As the LL goes, I kind of suck at that too: I've often spent a solid 5 seconds trying to figure out which corners share a colour, and which ones are in the right place. For this reason, I can't see much advantage in changing method, as other than this, my LL is fairly quick - usually 10-12s or so, rarely much more than that unless I mess up an algorithm (using Eve when I need a Niklas, or worse, nothing -.-). I see that most Petrus users don't use the order he outlines, but I'm uncreative and lazy, so do. Is there any use in switching LL method if I can't spot a simple permutation? Don't most kind of rely on that? Plus, I chose the Petrus method because it had minimal algorithms needed for good times. Like I said, I'm lazy, and I'd rather not change that if I don't have to: learning 40+ or however many algs for a method doesn't exactly appeal. I'll do it if I have to, but I won't be thrilled for the first fortnight...
Just a wondering now, but why does the Petrus lack popularity so bad? Despite my whining about it, the block building makes so much damn sense to me, and the EO pre-LL strikes me as a great effort saver, though I suppose you could work it into Fridrich if you wanted.
I know that was incredibly wordy, and I apologise. I'm Scottish, and that means I never use 5 words when 10 will do.
tl;dnr - colour neutrality, yea or nay? better LL methods?
Innocence
Veteran
Colour neutrality - ALWAYS yea. If you can do the blocks on any colour, it makes no sense to stop. I made the mistake of switching to a single colour when I read that colour neutrality barely makes a difference movecount wise.
If your LL is 10-12 seconds and you average around 50 seconds or higher, then you DEFINITELY shouldn't worry about LL. The first two layers and LL should take about the same amount of time with any method IMO, to a certain point (like sub-15). LL slightly faster, but not too much.
EmersonHerrmann
Veteran
You don't have to be color neutral to be faster, Erik Johnson is one of the fastest Petrus users and uses white/yellow.
jms_gears1
Premium Member
Your LL takes 10-12 seconds using the petrus LL system right?
If so dont listen to innocence.
Ok look at lit like this. Fridrich LL system is OLL/PLL, and normally youd have to learn 57(?) OLLs and 21 PLLs for the full system.
Because of the EO step in petrus the OLL alg count is reduced from 57 to 7. And all of thm are really fast. and also really easy to find as it only requires you to recognize the pattern of the yellow stickers (Or whatever your U face is)
And you could 2Look PLL which would require at the minimum, 6 algs, however it would be best with 7 algs.
So for a 4 look last layer you would only need to learn 13-14 algs. Each of these permutations are very easy to recognize.
tl;dr Switch to OLL/PLL
CriminallyVulgar
Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2010
- Messages
- 8
I had a feeling OLL/PLL would be recommended, I'm glad I got good reasons to go along with it. I'll take a longer look at it, I'm getting into the habit of learning algs, but breaking the habits from doing old ones... could be tough. It's all in the name of speed!
jms_gears1
Premium Member
To learn algs simply break them down into finger tricks. Once you have the alg down use the alg a lot until you can recog the case. Its really not that big of an issue.
as a side note, PLL is generally recognized by blocks of pieces, Just FYI
CriminallyVulgar
Member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2010
- Messages
- 8
Yeah, having looked at it that seems to be the case for recognition... and with the edge algs, like in standard Petrus, it looks like I'll have to either learn to slice or learn to turn all 4 vertical faces fast. My fingertips are going to hurt, because slicing seems more practical, as well as faster, not to mention I hate changing grip too often mid-alg. Learning to recognise will take a while, but I'll get it.
I'll stop posting these things here, I think, unless I have anything to add regarding the Petrus method itself, I seem to be dragging things a bit off-topic.
somerandomkidmike
Veteran
I think it's useful to at least be able to recognize for two opposite colours, but I agree that you don't have to be completely colour neutral to be fast.
jms_gears1
Premium Member
Nope, so far everything you have posted has been completely on topic. This thread for discussing all things petrus, so youre fine.
irontwig
Veteran
Does anybody use ZZLL with Petrus? Just wondering.
Escher
Babby
@CriminallyVulgar:
You seem to have a really good attitude, I'm sure you'll get faster very quickly thinking like that...
I'm inclined to say that you should stick with your current methods for now.
Being colour neutral is a really great advantage a large percentage of cubers don't (and won't ever) have.
If you take the time to learn the recognition for the 6 possible corner permutations for each OLL pattern, you can cut down your CP recognition time by an incredible amount. You could learn it from here but there are plenty of specific tutorials on youtube.
I don't necessarily mean you have to learn all of the algorithms, but if you know which corners need to be swapped instantly...
If you're struggling to find pieces for the expansion of the first block, try slowing down for the last few moves of the block and tracking pieces for the expansion before you finish.
If you want, I can give you plenty of algs and pointers for your solving, just send me a PM.
Also, I'll be in Aberdeen from Friday, whereabouts in Scotland are you?
You seem to have a really good attitude, I'm sure you'll get faster very quickly thinking like that...
I'm inclined to say that you should stick with your current methods for now.
Being colour neutral is a really great advantage a large percentage of cubers don't (and won't ever) have.
If you take the time to learn the recognition for the 6 possible corner permutations for each OLL pattern, you can cut down your CP recognition time by an incredible amount. You could learn it from here but there are plenty of specific tutorials on youtube.
I don't necessarily mean you have to learn all of the algorithms, but if you know which corners need to be swapped instantly...
If you're struggling to find pieces for the expansion of the first block, try slowing down for the last few moves of the block and tracking pieces for the expansion before you finish.
If you want, I can give you plenty of algs and pointers for your solving, just send me a PM.
Also, I'll be in Aberdeen from Friday, whereabouts in Scotland are you?
_D2_
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2010
- Messages
- 21
I was thinking about giving petrus a shot because block building seems more fun than F2L slots and because it seems there are less algorithms than fridrich.
Questions:
1- So Petrus LL is basically an EO + COLL + EP?
2- After EO you finish the F2L, can you undo the EO while finishing the F2L(building the block
)??
3- Is FridrichLL faster than PetrusLL, or it really depends on the person(NOT taste, SPEED)?
Questions:
1- So Petrus LL is basically an EO + COLL + EP?
2- After EO you finish the F2L, can you undo the EO while finishing the F2L(building the block
)??3- Is FridrichLL faster than PetrusLL, or it really depends on the person(NOT taste, SPEED)?
AngeL
Regular
^I prefer the Petrus last layer just for how smoothly it goes when you already have all the edges oriented.
Can someone give me the pros and cons of Blockbuilding the last step of F2L after EO, vs. doing them F2L style? I know BB will yield lower movecount, but I'm talking for speed. I've been finding that I can finish F2L extremely quickly after EO by doing CE pairs, just because EO makes them really easy to find, and all 2gen insertions is insanely slick.
If BB can make it significantly faster, I'll start working on it, but doing it CFOP style just seems so fast already, and only using UR for blockbuilding seems pretty tough to get used to...
Can someone give me the pros and cons of Blockbuilding the last step of F2L after EO, vs. doing them F2L style? I know BB will yield lower movecount, but I'm talking for speed. I've been finding that I can finish F2L extremely quickly after EO by doing CE pairs, just because EO makes them really easy to find, and all 2gen insertions is insanely slick.
If BB can make it significantly faster, I'll start working on it, but doing it CFOP style just seems so fast already, and only using UR for blockbuilding seems pretty tough to get used to...
Cyrus C.
Veteran
I was thinking about giving petrus a shot because block building seems more fun than F2L slots and because it seems there are less algorithms than fridrich.
Questions:
1- So Petrus LL is basically an EO + COLL + EP?
2- After EO you finish the F2L, can you undo the EO while finishing the F2L(building the block
3- Is FridrichLL faster than PetrusLL, or it really depends on the person(NOT taste, SPEED)?
1- You can do anything for petrus LL, don't look at the method on lar5. I'd recommend OCLL, PLL for a beginner. Then maybe try out COLL, PELL or EJF2L, PLL.
2- Well, technically you could (if you restored it later during the 2x3x3), but I wouldn't, RU is so nice, why would you want to through in an F or B?
3- PetrusLL is faster. You don't have to orient the edges like you do in Fridrich.
a small kitten
Veteran
In the long run, doing blockbuilding will give you a faster speed because there are less moves. It takes a lot practice to use blockbuilding because instead of choosing between two pairs to do, you have to pick the fastest of the two pairs plus two 1x1x2s.
It depends on what is significant to you. If you average around 25, one saved second won't matter as much as it would if you averaged 12-13. I don't know exactly how much time it saves.
Cyrus C.
Veteran
I think that blockbuilding a 1x2x2 and using a CE pair for the last slot would be the fastest.
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