Clean WCA by deleting all blindfold results & records!

[shelley]

In the sports world they don't erase everyone's records just because one athlete used steroids.

 

[Pedro]

I also agree that wiping out the complete list of records would be a good idea. I would not mind it at all. We can save the ‘old records’, so that people can still refer to their records by saying it’s their National, Continental or World record “under the old blindfold rules” (as long as it’s not broken, I guess). The records, as they are now, are not totally useless, in my eyes.

I don't like this idea at all, even though I'm not that good at (or interested in) at BLD solving. It has already been pointed out that preventing cheating completely is practically impossible. If later someone manages to cheat under new regulations, should all records be deleted again?

And what about other events, like 3x3x3 speedsolving? What if someone gets to see the scramble before his own attempt (like taking a video/picture of someone else's solve) and then memorizes a short solution and gets a very good time? Should all cubers' 3x3x3 results be deleted, because it turns out that cheating was possible and you can't trust anyone?

agreed completely

 

[Mike Hughey]

In the sports world they don't erase everyone's records just because one athlete used steroids.

The best argument of all. Please don't erase everyone's records for this.

 

[Joël]

In the sports world they don't erase everyone's records just because one athlete used steroids.

Hmm.. Yes, when I think about it, maybe you're right... Deleting all the records is a bit extreme.

 

[MiloD]

I now agree too, I wasn't considering people who can not make it to many competitions....and I don't even have a BLD time in competition...

 

[alexc]

Wait, have I missed something here!!!???? You guys are all talking like you KNOW Matyas cheated, did he confess or something???!!!! I didn't hear about anything!!!?????

 

[Pedro]

did you follow the thread, Alex?

 

[Mike Hughey]

Wait, have I missed something here!!!???? You guys are all talking like you KNOW Matyas cheated, did he confess or something???!!!! I didn't hear about anything!!!?????

http://www.speedsolving.com/showpost.php?p=35102&postcount=515

 

[alexc]

Oh, I didn't see that. Wow.... nice job Joel. So, does the WCA know about this? Have they said anything about what they're going to do??

 

[shelley]

Be patient; the WCA's report should be up by next week or so, when Ron gets back home (he's been in California).

 

[guusrs]

OK, for some people I understand deleting all bld results from the past is a step too far, especially for those who do not compete very much or anymore. But maybe we could preserve those past results and not mix them with the new-style results. Would this be a reasonable alternative?

He kept lying to us even after the WCA gave him an honest opportunity to confess, and even after he had seen the first reconstructions. And then the investigation also took a lot of time and energy from a lot of people, and put us in a quite awkward position. It's quite obvious that he doesn't respect the community, so it's *not* unfair if the community doesn't respect him anymore.

And this is not a school test, where you cheat so you don't fail. This is at the highest level of worldwide cubing, there's a lot of respect and also money involved. Matyas stole what other people deserved.

C'mon, Stefan, he's just a kid. Do really think he all realized what you just said? We're the adults that created the WCA rules, we should know better, at least make better bld rules. I agree we should make clear to him we are not happy with his cheating, a temporary ban is an option but let's not crucify him!

I don't care. The community is more important than him.

I do not agree! Being a community should not be more important than someone's life.

Here I'm in a dilemma. I do agree that this would be good for having "clean" records (though as Lucas showed already, there are many ways to cheat, and eliminating cheating with 100% certainty would require a lot of impractical overhead work). On the other hand, I don't want all the honest cubers punished.

We won't punish any cuber if all past results are put aside, just don't mix them with new results under new rules. With that we will avoid discussion about others who possibly cheated.

I respect that you are talking about the human aspects of cheating, and the human aspect in this particular case. This is why I wanted to become a lawyer once. Every criminal is also a human being, and every crime has it’s own story.

That's exactly my point Joel, keep in mind the human aspect and, of course, his age.

They don’t set world records in such tests. They don’t get on stage to shake Mr. Rubiks hand afterwards. They don’t receive 2000 euro’s of prize money. They don’t push Tyson Mao off the podium at a World Championship. They don’t take 15 cubes and pose in front of the camara’s with a smile.

But there's a story behind it: he loves attention which he can only get to improve his own worldrecords. So once cheated there was no way back....

I am convinced that in serious sports, when honour and money is involved, many people will tend to be a lot more honest.

I disagree, many athletes use enhancement drugs (and never get caught).

I think that what Matyas has done for such a long time is disgusting. Will this damage his life? I don’t really know. But come on! If you mess with 100’s of people for such a long period of time, it is bound to come out someday. He should have seen it coming.

I partially agree, just keep in mind he was a very, very young boy when he started this.

I agree that he should have a second chance. But right now, I personally don’t feel like meeting him the next competition, or the one after that. So a temporary ban is ok with me.

I would not avoid him when he will visit a competition soon. I hope he will admit he cheated and talk about it, when, how and why. But maybe we have to wait a couple of years, until he has grown older.

Yes, all we can do is waiting for whatever the WCA decides but this forum could help them seeing things from different sides.

Gus

 

[Mike Hughey]

OK, for some people I understand deleting all bld results from the past is a step too far, especially for those who do not compete very much or anymore. But maybe we could preserve those past results and not mix them with the new-style results. Would this be a reasonable alternative?

I personally am okay with this. But then, I really hope to get successful BLD solves under the new rules as well, even if it might be a while before I get to a competition to do it (assuming Chattahoochee is too soon for the new rules). As long as I can point someone at a list that shows my old times, I'll be very happy. But I'm not sure - others who are higher ranked than me might not feel the same. I'm mainly happy to be part of the group at all - I don't care so much how high I am - but others who are very good and at the top of the list might feel differently. Is this fair to Danyang Chen, for instance? (He's only made it to one competition so far - it might be hard for him to get to another one, depending on how regularly competitions occur in China in the future.)

 

[Rama]

Well I can imagine that some people who had an succesfull bld streak wont like this idea, but I can imagine that some people lost their succesfull bld streak or just DNF alot because they wanted to get just as fast or even faster then Mátyás.

 

[Pedro]

Well I can imagine that some people who had an succesfull bld streak wont like this idea, but I can imagine that some people lost their succesfull bld streak or just DNF alot because they wanted to get just as fast or even faster then Mátyás.

exactly

and I can imagine some people stopped bld or cubing because they thought they would never reach his times

 

[Dene]

Ah so much to say, but I can't be bothered. I will only say this. I don't think it is a good idea to separate the records, or remove any records at all. This is because, those records will always be branded as the "cheating records". They will quickly become obsolete and wiped forever, it is just a waste of time trying to do some fancy separating setup. I really do not see any point in doing anything. We all know the records can be beaten, and they will, so who cares?

 

[pjk]

If Matyas indeed cheated, I think all of this BLD records should be erased. However, why are we only looking at Matyas? Because he recorded the fastest time in the world? What about others, in say the top 20? In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether you are first or 20th, your times should be be looked in to just as close as Matyas' were. How do we know that 95% of the BLD cubers didn't cheat, whether they DNF'ed or not? We don't. I don't really see why we are zooming in on Matyas but no one else, because it may be happening a lot more than we think.

 

[pjk]

Ah so much to say, but I can't be bothered. I will only say this. I don't think it is a good idea to separate the records, or remove any records at all. This is because, those records will always be branded as the "cheating records". They will quickly become obsolete and wiped forever, it is just a waste of time trying to do some fancy separating setup. I really do not see any point in doing anything. We all know the records can be beaten, and they will, so who cares?

But I don't see this as fair at all to non-cheaters. Chris Hardwick and Mike Hughey have both put up amazing big cube BLD times.... is it fair that they are placing into the "suspicious cheaters" category? All we can really do at this point is avoid it as best as possible from now on, and learn from our mistakes.

 

[Dene]

Ah so much to say, but I can't be bothered. I will only say this. I don't think it is a good idea to separate the records, or remove any records at all. This is because, those records will always be branded as the "cheating records". They will quickly become obsolete and wiped forever, it is just a waste of time trying to do some fancy separating setup. I really do not see any point in doing anything. We all know the records can be beaten, and they will, so who cares?

But I don't see this as fair at all to non-cheaters. Chris Hardwick and Mike Hughey have both put up amazing big cube BLD times.... is it fair that they are placing into the "suspicious cheaters" category? All we can really do at this point is avoid it as best as possible from now on, and learn from our mistakes.

What do you mean? What I'm trying to say is that it should just be ignored completely. What I'm saying is that if they separate the records, then that is exactly what will happen, everyone will be branded with cheating, not just those that did...

 

[Pedro]

yep...just keep the current records...

and, Patrick, we're looking into Matyas because he was accused and we found proof...

if someone finds proof about other cubers cheating, I'm sure WCA will investigate too

 

[dbeyer]

Hello everybody. I feel that in the upcoming competitions, such as those in Georgia, US Open/Nat'ls and also the Chattahoochee HS Competition, there will be some very intense blindfolded competition. I know that Chris and I want to be viewed as legitimate. I have spoken with Chris on the speculations of the legitimacy of our attempts.

Chris and I will be glad to cooperate in anyway shape or form. We will actually be willing to go to any lengths to make it through the solve so that our legitimacy will not be in question.

Paper blocking our line of sight to the cube perhaps?
The inconvience though of forcing a judge to intensely monitor you is a bit unfair. It can be quite demanding of a volunteer judge.

"Hey, you there, yea, can you sit here for about an hour? I know it's lunch time, but we need judges do this for them."

For a person to sit there and daudle for an hour is bad enough for the average volunteer. Let alone them now having to intensely monitor and prevent cheating.

Also ... once again. This forum, if I recall correctly, is to strengthen the blindfolded community. We exchange methods, ideas, tips. We share experiences. Post our best times, share our excitement and joy of solving a cube blindfolded. Questions are asked here (sometimes repetitively, but none the less).

This forum is not about cheaters. This forum is not about, lack of character, or human morals. This forum is not about the WCA, their databases, rules, and problems.

This forum is not meant for defending, offending, reprimanding, accusing, or speculating other people, for things that they have done in their past. This forum is not the place to express your concerns about decisions that the WCA has yet to make.

Just because you slip the word BLINDFOLD into the subject does not make the body of the message appropriate for this forum. Let alone the tangents that the later posts, ideas, and replies go off on.

PJK, do you feel that this thread should be moved to another forum section?
Later,
DB