Can we really solve big cubes?

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There. An understandable odd parity alg. No lengthy discussion needed.

If someone did find an odd parity alg which is done by reason, how would this change cubing as it is today?
About as much as eating would change if someone today invented the spoon.

the cage method may be used as an example against my reasoning here (since it bypasses odd parity)
No it doesn't.

Yes it can, if you do it correctly.
Look at the following site. Specifically, I do steps 1-7 and the "edge lifter" in step 8. The other two algorithms in step 8 are odd parity algorithms, however, I use commutators to solve the rest. The important thing to do is correct the upper half of complimentary edges so that the lower half can be put in correctly. The lower half can be put in with commutators and possibly one quarter turn rotation. However, this bypasses the need to do odd parity algorithms, period.
http://virtualpolyhedra.googlepages.com/ultimate.html

I have seen countless videos on youtube make it seem that one must use an odd parity algorithm to complete the last portion of the cage, but that is a false notion.
 
The lower half can be put in with commutators and possibly one quarter turn rotation. However, this bypasses the need to do odd parity algorithms, period.
Hahahahaha.

Do you see why Stefan is highlighting the specific text he is highlighting? Read every bolded word. We're not trying to make you mad, but please read very carefully the words Stefan bolded from your post.

Chris
 
Equally hilariously, with his paragraph about cage in his first post he's basically saying "Can we really solve the cube? I know we can, but let's pretend we can't. Can we?".
 
Thanks you guys for your input. The purpose of this thread was to gain more knowledge of the implied logic behind what I call the "U2 method" in finding the single edge correction algorithms. I found a lot of views and they are greatly appreciated. It has been fun and educational.

Thank you StefanPochmann for your 28q algorithm:
Dw2' L' U F r U2 r U2 r U2 r U2 r F' U' L d L' d' L D L' d L
I will add it to my collection (and of course, give you credit and use this url as a reference to it). As a matter of fact, why don't you add that alg to your site? It is surely a much cleaner alg than the one you found by computer.

Thanks Chris for spending your time to try to clear things up for me about the "U2 method".

I will say this last thing. The briefest odd parity algorithm yet invented or found by man or computer for the one edge "flip" (without messing up the rest of the cube, i.e. a pure edge "flip) is not 25q. I have personally derived one by hand from logical reasoning which is 24q. It seems like the "optimal" cube solvers of today just do not match up to reality of what there is to know about cube theory.

There may be a shorter alg than 24q out there yet to be discovered, but based on how I found mine algorithm and the results of the "U2 method", I honestly cannot see that happening. However, I am always surprised.
 
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The only reason we need a length parity algorithm at all is because in reduction we insist that the centers remain solved and all but the last two edges remain intact. Otherwise we would indeed, as in the cage method, simply do an r turn to fix it, and probably not even realize we had parity in the first place (similar to how on the 3x3 we do AUF turns without realizing the parity of edges and corners gets swapped). The problem is that as far as reduction is concerned an r move messes up too many things to quickly fix with commutators - for speedsolving purposes you don't have time to think (or care) about fixing center and edge swaps intuitively; it makes far more sense to memorize an algorithm, however unintuitive, and just do it as quickly as possible.

Here is a simple(r) parity algorithm which does not have any edge commutators. Here I can again explain what every move does, as well as reconstruct the algorithm from the concept even if I have forgotten the moves, so I consider it fully intuitive.
(r2 U2 r U2 r2) (B2 (l U2 l') E2 (l U2 l') (r U2 r') E2 (r U2 r') B2)
The first sequence does an edge wing 4-cycle on U without affecting the edges on the bottom or sides (since parity algs ought to leave those alone). Now look at the cube: four rows of centers are off, in two block two-cycles. The second algorithm simply solves this with a single commutator-like algorithm by performing one two-cycle with E2, placing the other two-cycle in its place, and doing E2 again, fixing both E2 and the second two-cycle. This is set up by B2 to ensure that only two opposite 'slots' on E2 need to be affected.

It is entirely different than all of the algorithms you guys have given me or any "single edge correction" algorithms that I have ever seen. But, it is 24q. However, because it is derived from pure logic (meaning that it is much more logical than the explanations which I have been getting in this thread), I feel that it is too valueable to give away freely on the internet. In the near future, I will probably make and sell a brief book which explains how it was derived. It seems like the "optimal" cube solvers of today just do not match up to reality of what there is to know about cube theory.

This attitude is not really welcome in the cubing community. We're not competing against each other; nobody is trying to publish papers and win some kind of professorship, and there is no real money to be made in cubing. There is nothing to be gained for yourself by keeping some kind of secret withheld. Our goal is to increase shared knowledge and this is the only way cube theory can be developed to its fullest. I'm sure that if people had known you were trying to steal information in order to make money off of it they would have given you a lot less help.

PS: There is nothing wrong with optimal cube solvers and I think many of us would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult our work simply because you think you have improved on it. As I have mentioned to you (although you did not seem to care to listen to ir) they rely only on the assumptions that the users have input. As far as parity algorithms people have been asking for algorithms in <Rw,Lw,U2,F2,D2,B2>, not because this is the way to construct the most optimal algorithms (and it probably isn't, especially in quarter turn metric, because of all the double turns) but because this leads to algorithms that are fast to execute. There is not enough computing power to be able to come up with an optimal parity alg if you allow every possible 4x4 move, so this computation has not been done, and it is wrong to assume that it has.
 
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The lower half can be put in with commutators and possibly one quarter turn rotation. However, this bypasses the need to do odd parity algorithms, period.
http://virtualpolyhedra.googlepages.com/ultimate.html

Even that link has a parity algorithm. Granted, it changes centers, but it fixes an odd edge parity:

F' L2 F2 d F' d2 F' L2 F2 d F' d

as you can see, there's an odd number of slice turns done... i.e. a parity fix.
 
PS: There is nothing wrong with optimal cube solvers and I think many of us would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult our work simply because you think you have improved on it. As I have mentioned to you (although you did not seem to care to listen to ir) they rely only on the assumptions that the users have input. As far as parity algorithms people have been asking for algorithms in <Rw,Lw,U2,F2,D2,B2>, not because this is the way to construct the most optimal algorithms (and it probably isn't, especially in quarter turn metric, because of all the double turns) but because this leads to algorithms that are fast to execute. There is not enough computing power to be able to come up with an optimal parity alg if you allow every possible 4x4 move, so this computation has not been done, and it is wrong to assume that it has.

Don't worry. My claim is not based on any of your work. I do not Plagiarize. I do not believe in stealing. This was not my intent as you have claimed. You judged me wrongly. My 24q algorithm is totally original, I can assure you. If it wasn't, do you think I could get 24q? I honestly do not think so. I could not even get 25q.
 
I have personally derived one by hand from logical reasoning which is 24q. It is entirely different than all of the algorithms you guys have given me or any "single edge correction" algorithms that I have ever seen. But, it is 24q. However, because it is derived from pure logic (meaning that it is much more logical than the explanations which I have been getting in this thread), I feel that it is too valueable to give away freely on the internet. In the near future, I will probably make and sell a brief book which explains how it was derived.
Ah... so this is what your threads are about. I wonder how long it will take until someone buys the book and posts the alg here.
 
I have personally derived one by hand from logical reasoning which is 24q. It is entirely different than all of the algorithms you guys have given me or any "single edge correction" algorithms that I have ever seen. But, it is 24q. However, because it is derived from pure logic (meaning that it is much more logical than the explanations which I have been getting in this thread), I feel that it is too valueable to give away freely on the internet. In the near future, I will probably make and sell a brief book which explains how it was derived.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14729
 
If you really have such a low opinion of others' work, again, you won't fit into the cubing community at all.

You take offense so easy don't you. I think you are intimidated.

And, lastly, who are you to tell me whether I belong in the cube community or not? You are not even a moderator! You have no authority to tell members who they are. You are, I am afraid to say, just one particle of this entire site, just as I am.

You could have at least private messagged this to me, not to display to hundreds of viewers. So now, I am afraid I need to put you in your place in front of everyone.
 
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If you really have such a low opinion of others' work, again, you won't fit into the cubing community at all.

You take offense so easy don't you. I think you are intimidated.

And, lastly, who are you to tell me whether I belong in the cube community or not? You are not even a moderator! You have no authority to tell members who they are. You are, I am afraid to say, just one particle of this entire site, just as I am.

You could have at least private messagged this to me, not to display to hundreds of viewers. So now, I am afraid I need to put you in your place in front of everyone.

Hey ummm, qqwref is much more respected than you are.
You came here with a self pompous attitude and decided that everyone was wrong except you.

Youre being a jerk, so have fun with your book.
Cool story bro.
 
If you really have such a low opinion of others' work, again, you won't fit into the cubing community at all.

You take offense so easy don't you. I think you are intimidated.

And, lastly, who are you to tell me whether I belong in the cube community or not? You are not even a moderator! You have no authority to tell members who they are. You are, I am afraid to say, just one particle of this entire site, just as I am.

You could have at least private messagged this to me, not to display to hundreds of viewers. So now, I am afraid I need to put you in your place in front of everyone.

Being a moderator is not how you become respected in this community. Nor is publicly shaming others. You gain respect by contributing. By contributing your knowledge to the community, everyone benefits. Instead, you come into this thread, ask a question, then when several (highly respected, I might add) members give an answer that isn't what you wanted (or that you didn't understand?), you claim that the logic they are using is somehow "impure" and that your algorithm is "much more logical."

See, if your way is really "much more logical" than you would get respect by explaining and sharing with the community. But instead, you decided that your knowledge is "too valuable to share freely on the internet" and that you're going to RANSOM this knowledge back to us. THAT is not the way to gain respect.

If your discovery is really that revolutionary, your best bet is to just share it and let the community decide.
 
Wow, this thread derailed so quickly into bizarre world. I thought we were having an interesting discussion, and now it has turned into some kind of a flame war.

cmowla, in general our attitude here can be most closely related to freeware software. We all share ideas freely, like qqwref said. Also, qqwref's name is Michael and he carries quite a lot of weight in our community, not to mention that he is respected by many people here.

You take offense so easy don't you. I think you are intimidated.

This statement alone proves that you are new to the cubing community, and have not yet realized that our culture is quite different from most other competitive activities. You see, we do not compete against each other, but rather we all compete against the clock, or against our own abilities. Those results are simply ranked together. To say that qqwref is intimidated by you is such a strange and unusual way to respond to someone in this community. It certainly makes you stand out, and not in a positive way.

So let's say you created a 24q solution to the parity fix, that's great! Congratulations! However, your jerkish attitude has made sure that I will be very unlikely to buy such a book with this algorithm listed. How much money do you expect to make from us anyway? This is a very small community for one, and also I don't see how having a 24q solution to the parity fix will revolutionize cubing, as you put it before. If you truly discovered such an algorithm, and if it exists, then that's very interesting! I find the idea of optimizing this type of algorithm fascinating!

Come on though. Do you really expect us to buy a book from an author who not only insults us, but also claims that we're all intimated by your level of cubing insight? On the most simple level that just bad marketing, but to be perfectly honest I think it's just plain stupid of you to act like this when you're trying to sell such a book.

Good luck with your book sales, you're going to need it.

Chris
 
For the record, *I* didn't find him bad. More amusing. I think mainly he misunderstood how we work and then we had our typical overreactions. Oh and I'm of course still interested to see his 24-mover and explanation.
 
Yeah Chris.

I did not mean for this to happen. My main intention was to let the community know that there is an algorithm that is 24q.

I want to ask you a favor. Since you are a moderator, can you delete my 2 threads? This did not end up where I wanted it to be.

And, I can already predict that these members will take these very words which I am saying and use it against me. They are so cruel. What did I do to them? This is the puzzle theory section, not "pat me on the back because I have seniority" section. I wanted to inform them that there is "another universe" out there, but all they could say was "Prove it, show me, and if you are unwilling to give it to me for free, then you are a criminal!".

I highly respect you Chris. You have given me some good explanations. But, it seems that I am not wanted on this site, and I will not waste my time anymore. Even if I initially planned not to give my idea away, I will certainly not do it now.

Oh. And again, I know someone is going to quote my words here and continue to make a mockery of me. It seems that new commers who don't have something to give the community for free is scorned upon. I have spent 8 months developing what I know about odd parity, and I am sorry to say, but I cannot throw away 100's of hours of work for nothing but respect from a community who doesn't care about my profile or my findings. I am being honest. No one responded to my post for the last 4 hours, but less than 10 minutes after I finally attempt to defend myself (which I was a misunderstanding) 3 people (including LUCAS) decided to bash me instead of try to nicely explain to me that I misunderstood poor MG.
 
I think mainly he misunderstood how we work and then we had our typical overreactions.

Yeah I guess we do tend to overreact, I know I'm certainly one of those people. I try to tell myself that cubing is just a hobby, but I guess I take it a bit too seriously sometimes. Gotta work on better balance, after all the cube is still just a toy at the end of the day. Even if it is the coolest toy ever invented IMHO. ;-)

All in all cmowla no hard feelings.

--edit-- you must have been posting right as I was too:
I did not mean for this to happen. My main intention was to let the community know that there is an algorithm that is 24q.

I want to ask you a favor. Since you are a moderator, can you delete my 2 threads? This did not end up where I wanted it to be.

I don't have the ability to delete threads or posts in this forum, but even if I did I think there is a lot of good information in this thread and I don't want to delete material that could be useful to others.

I think Stefan was right. Cmowla I think maybe you were not used to a community like ours, which can be cruel at times to newcomers I will sadly admit that. Not to mention that people, including myself, overreacted to your previous statements. As much as we all hate to admit it, cubing is still just a hobby and I think a lot of us at times take it too seriously, or at least I do that sometimes.

I say no hard feelings, let's all try to muck through this and start out on a better footing. I respect the work you have put into cubing, and though I disagree with selling the results of that work, if that is what you choose to do then that is your choice.

I think this whole strange situation is most likely just a big misunderstanding.

Chris
 
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Hey man, if youre going to leave, do it gracefully.
Thats a rather backhanded farewell.

Maybe there's a reason they're cold to you, its because youre being pretentious, and you think that your 24q algorithm makes you a genius.
You dont deserve praise if you try to put yourself on a pedestal and then run away when you dont get the response you want.
 
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