Sub-4 3x3 Average + Sub-Minute 7x7 Single

Hououin Kyouma

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I'm seeing a lot of people laughing at the idea of a sub-minute 7^3 solve as if it were LITERALLY impossible, comical to even contemplate regarding. Respectfully, I'm certain they will be proven wrong, but probably not until they have possibly lost interest in cubing anyway and consequently never hear about it. Here are some important, telling facts:

• People said the same thing about a sub-minute 5^3 single solve until Feliks did it. That was only around ten years ago (if you think ten years is a particularly long time, it's probably because you're on the younger side; in the overall scheme of things it's simply not, at all).

• Then people said, "Okay, yeah. We misjudged THIS time but obviously this could ACTUALLY never happen on a 6^3 though! We were barely wrong about 5^3 and that's only BARELY possible as is! Doing it on a 6^3 is just dumb to even think about!"

Max Park has entered the chat. Happened. Not just one "impossibility" but the next "impossibility". Both of these things happened in about a decade, all while perfectly logical and knowledgeable cubers felt it would outright never happen, and with some solid reasoning.

• Sub-20 4^3 single times were once called impossible. The AVERAGE is now sub-20. If someone had claimed to have something like a 14-second single on video back then, people wouldn't have even asked for proof because they would have felt the idea was SO farfetched that they could outright dismiss it, not unlike how we might react to someone claiming to have a sub-1 3^3 single today; it just seems obviously impossible, but that's how this did indeed seem at one point as well.

• I remember about 5 or 6 years before Lucas got the first sub-5 3^3 single world record. I was watching a video of some very experienced cubers and (if I recall) WCA delegates answering questions. One of the questions pertained to how low they saw the 3^3 single record ultimately going, even if in the very, very distant future. One of the older guys said something like, "Oh, I don't even like answering those type of questions anymore! LOL. We're always wrong, every single time. But you know what? I am willing to say no one will ever get under 5 seconds, in a competition at least, unless a totally new method comes along or something. Maybe close, but it's just too many moves. You know?"

There was a time when that was the general consensus. We now live in a world where low 2-second solves are starting to happen and a sub-5 AVERAGE (forget single) is slowly replacing the benchmark that sub-6 once was, just as sub-6 did sub-7.

I remember a time when Mats Valk was the second fastest in the world and hadn't even gotten sub-7 yet. We now live in a world where top-level cubers might even scowl at a high 4 if they feel like they messed something up. If I could go back in time just 10 years and tell people all this, they would think I was utterly insane. Or, perhaps more generously, they would have said they could see it, but not for another hundred years.

• As recently as during Felik's reign, the second fastest person was also once Alexander Lau. He's not even in the top 100 anymore. The entire top 100 is comprised of people who would have been considered at least second best in the world less than a decade ago. Let that sink in. Now imagine that Tymon and/or Max aren't/isn't even in the top 100 anymore and tell me what that future leaderboard must look like then.

Many people haven't seen things like this happen so many times and don't understand that speedcubing is actually still in its infancy, but the feeling of being close to the limit is how we have ALWAYS felt because even what we see in whatever current present seems so insane without anything better to compare it to. It's recency bias.

Technique for guitar playing has been developing for way longer and yet the same thing is still happening. Every generation is faster than the last and at the top we have people doing things once thought impossible like playing 32 notes per second, kids in their bedrooms that could take touring prodigies at the top of their game from 20 years ago to school.

Cubing is nowhere close to finished developing, especially not on bigger cubes where we're going to eventually see a bunch of fine motor skill prodigies in the same way we do in technical guitar and classical piano/violin. We'll also eventually encounter several savants. It's inevitable. There will be people simultaneously with much higher TPS than Ruihang and better lookahead than Max who solve more efficiently than Tymon because when they first picked up a cube, it was already outright EXPECTED that you start learning ZBLL, advanced pseudoslotting, etc. as early as you can if you even want a chance to be world class. It becomes a common goal like OLL and PLL instead of it being a newer phenomenon mostly explored only by the top cubers. Kids are already growing up idolizing Max and Tymon the same way those two would have looked at Feliks when they started. Every generation is boosted by the achievements of that before it. We stand on the shoulders of giants standing on the shoulders of giants, etc.

There are two things I can guarantee you. A sub-minute 7^3 will eventually happen, and so will a sub-4 3^3 average. I feel utterly crazy even saying it myself, but when I look at the history, statistics, and trajectory, if I treat it how I would any other prediction based in maths, I'm forced to see how foolish and arrogant it would be to decide we're finally right THIS time when we go through this over and OVER. People simply forget somehow. Until we're talking about times as insane as what a 20-move solve would look like with 15TPS or so, we really have no idea where times will go for now besides that they're definitely not going up.

As hard as it is to imagine, and a little sad to accept in a way, the top 10 probably won't even be in the top 100 within 20 years at this rate, and I think both of these things will happen well before that. It's just the beginning.
 
I'm seeing a lot of people laughing at the idea of a sub-minute 7^3 solve as if it were LITERALLY impossible, comical to even contemplate regarding. Respectfully, I'm certain they will be proven wrong, but probably not until they have possibly lost interest in cubing anyway and consequently never hear about it. Here are some important, telling facts:

• People said the same thing about a sub-minute 5^3 single solve until Feliks did it. That was only around ten years ago (if you think ten years is a particularly long time, it's probably because you're on the younger side; in the overall scheme of things it's simply not, at all).

• Then people said, "Okay, yeah. We misjudged THIS time but obviously this could ACTUALLY never happen on a 6^3 though! We were barely wrong about 5^3 and that's only BARELY possible as is! Doing it on a 6^3 is just dumb to even think about!"

Max Park has entered the chat. Happened. Not just one "impossibility" but the next "impossibility". Both of these things happened in about a decade, all while perfectly logical and knowledgeable cubers felt it would outright never happen, and with some solid reasoning.

• Sub-20 4^3 single times were once called impossible. The AVERAGE is now sub-20. If someone had claimed to have something like a 14-second single on video back then, people wouldn't have even asked for proof because they would have felt the idea was SO farfetched that they could outright dismiss it, not unlike how we might react to someone claiming to have a sub-1 3^3 single today; it just seems obviously impossible, but that's how this did indeed seem at one point as well.

• I remember about 5 or 6 years before Lucas got the first sub-5 3^3 single world record. I was watching a video of some very experienced cubers and (if I recall) WCA delegates answering questions. One of the questions pertained to how low they saw the 3^3 single record ultimately going, even if in the very, very distant future. One of the older guys said something like, "Oh, I don't even like answering those type of questions anymore! LOL. We're always wrong, every single time. But you know what? I am willing to say no one will ever get under 5 seconds, in a competition at least, unless a totally new method comes along or something. Maybe close, but it's just too many moves. You know?"

There was a time when that was the general consensus. We now live in a world where low 2-second solves are starting to happen and a sub-5 AVERAGE (forget single) is slowly replacing the benchmark that sub-6 once was, just as sub-6 did sub-7.

I remember a time when Mats Valk was the second fastest in the world and hadn't even gotten sub-7 yet. We now live in a world where top-level cubers might even scowl at a high 4 if they feel like they messed something up. If I could go back in time just 10 years and tell people all this, they would think I was utterly insane. Or, perhaps more generously, they would have said they could see it, but not for another hundred years.

• As recently as during Felik's reign, the second fastest person was also once Alexander Lau. He's not even in the top 100 anymore. The entire top 100 is comprised of people who would have been considered at least second best in the world less than a decade ago. Let that sink in. Now imagine that Tymon and/or Max aren't/isn't even in the top 100 anymore and tell me what that future leaderboard must look like then.

Many people haven't seen things like this happen so many times and don't understand that speedcubing is actually still in its infancy, but the feeling of being close to the limit is how we have ALWAYS felt because even what we see in whatever current present seems so insane without anything better to compare it to. It's recency bias.

Technique for guitar playing has been developing for way longer and yet the same thing is still happening. Every generation is faster than the last and at the top we have people doing things once thought impossible like playing 32 notes per second, kids in their bedrooms that could take touring prodigies at the top of their game from 20 years ago to school.

Cubing is nowhere close to finished developing, especially not on bigger cubes where we're going to eventually see a bunch of fine motor skill prodigies in the same way we do in technical guitar and classical piano/violin. We'll also eventually encounter several savants. It's inevitable. There will be people simultaneously with much higher TPS than Ruihang and better lookahead than Max who solve more efficiently than Tymon because when they first picked up a cube, it was already outright EXPECTED that you start learning ZBLL, advanced pseudoslotting, etc. as early as you can if you even want a chance to be world class. It becomes a common goal like OLL and PLL instead of it being a newer phenomenon mostly explored only by the top cubers. Kids are already growing up idolizing Max and Tymon the same way those two would have looked at Feliks when they started. Every generation is boosted by the achievements of that before it. We stand on the shoulders of giants standing on the shoulders of giants, etc.

There are two things I can guarantee you. A sub-minute 7^3 will eventually happen, and so will a sub-4 3^3 average. I feel utterly crazy even saying it myself, but when I look at the history, statistics, and trajectory, if I treat it how I would any other prediction based in maths, I'm forced to see how foolish and arrogant it would be to decide we're finally right THIS time when we go through this over and OVER. People simply forget somehow. Until we're talking about times as insane as what a 20-move solve would look like with 15TPS or so, we really have no idea where times will go for now besides that they're definitely not going up.

As hard as it is to imagine, and a little sad to accept in a way, the top 10 probably won't even be in the top 100 within 20 years at this rate, and I think both of these things will happen well before that. It's just the beginning.
I wanna reply with 'yeah but sub 30 7x7 is imposible' but I saw ur arguments and was like 'screw it it is totally possible'.

What about 2x2? I don't think the wr average will get below 0.7 anytime soon though
 
I wanna reply with 'yeah but sub 30 7x7 is imposible' but I saw ur arguments and was like 'screw it it is totally possible'.

What about 2x2? I don't think the wr average will get below 0.7 anytime soon though
It's more difficult to say with 2x2. The maximum amount of moves required to solve any given 2x2 scramble is 11 and most don't require that many. So if someone with both godlike TPS and godlike fewest-move techniques were to get insanely good at using inspection time (provided they possessed extremely good spatial awareness and ability to visualize) they could pull that off, even if they weren't literally solving 100% optimally or something crazy like that. I think another huge factor with 2x2 will be the nerve management, the ability to know you have a really good solve coming up and still not physically fumble it under that pressure. Just the technique of picking the cube up itself and also stopping the timer are also a lot more important on 2x2 than on any other cube right now.

2x2 is definitely a lot closer to a more serious limit as solves with very few moves on it aren't as hard to come by, but there's still technically room for improvement. It's just a matter of TPS, nerves, and getting a little more efficient now.

3x3 isn't nearly as optimized. It requires at least 20 moves and almost always less. Yet that's not a mark people are exactly terribly close to averaging at high speeds at all for now.

It's the big cubes where the potential improvement gets crazy though. The exact minimum required number of moves to solve a 7x7 isn't yet known, only that it's far, far, far lower than anyone is even remotely close to averaging. There's room for improvement literally everywhere by simply straight up getting better and also turning faster, no huge methodology development or concise trick additions even required yet. It's why it's the one least insane of all to imagine current times being blown away on. Given how many moves are still involved, if someone were in reality only 10% or so more efficient than Max while also turning only 10% faster, there would be such a gap in between their best times that it would look like they weren't nearly as close in ability as they were. The bigger the cube and the more turns required, the bigger the gap generally. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that one can't go under a minute. We're just not there yet.
 
Is this what you got from your Reading Steiner?

I feel utterly crazy even saying it myself, but when I look at the history, statistics, and trajectory, if I treat it how I would any other prediction based in maths, I'm forced to see how foolish and arrogant it would be to decide we're finally right THIS time when we go through this over and OVER. People simply forget somehow.
The problem with this outside-view argument is that we actually know better now.

I stop short of outright saying that a sub-minute single on 7 is impossible in my earlier post on this topic, but I do lay out what we would expect a sub-minute solve to look like, if/when it ever happens. 420 moves at 7 moves per second. Nobody in the world can currently get move counts that low while turning that fast, and in fact most top solvers are moving towards slightly sacrificing move efficiency in exchange for lookahead (i.e. reducing pauses, without necessarily increasing raw TPS). And even then, nobody is capable of sustaining 7 TPS!

I don't think this is an absolute barrier and you're right, it would be very arrogant to assume that sub-minute is definitely impossible. But I think it's unlikely to the extent that we will not see it any time soon. (Again, as mentioned in my linked post above, the biggest source of uncertainty isn't from the cubers who are active now (we know who they are and their limits), but from the new, upcoming generations of cubers.)

There's also a huge difference between 5^3, 6^3 and 7^3. When people said sub-minute on 5 was impossible (did people ever seriously claim this?), you have to remember how poor the hardware was back then. The cubers then did not expect big cube hardware to have improved by leaps and bounds, and since this assumption was broken, so too was their conclusion that sub-minute results on 5^3 were impossible.

And considering that the move count increases quadratically, the gap between a 6^3 solve and a 7^3 solve is going to be somewhat bigger than the gap between a 5^3 solve and a 6^3 solve; just because it took "only" 11 years for a sub-minute 6^3 solve to happen once a sub-minute 5^3 solve happened, doesn't mean that a sub-minute 7^3 solve is also going to come in 11 more years of waiting. (Don't forget, magnetic big cubes happened midway through that first 11-year period, with no other major improvement since. I doubt there'll be any comparatively major improvement to big cube hardware in this second 11-year period.)

I wanna reply with 'yeah but sub 30 7x7 is imposible' but I saw ur arguments and was like 'screw it it is totally possible'.
This, I'm fairly certain is close enough to impossible that we can treat it as such. (Like, not literally impossible, but might as well be.) It's one thing to be humble in the face of past incorrect predictions about impossibility, but making an outlandish claim like this is arrogant in its own right.

quote me in 100 years if humanity still exists, this forum is still around, and I'm proved wrong
 
This, I'm fairly certain is close enough to impossible that we can treat it as such. (Like, not literally impossible, but might as well be.) It's one thing to be humble in the face of past incorrect predictions about impossibility, but making an outlandish claim like this is arrogant in its own right.
read the op
 
read the op
Let me throw this back at you, then.

Is a sub-minute single possible?
Is a sub-30 single possible?
Is a sub-20 single possible?
Is a sub-15 single possible?
Is a sub-10 single possible?
Is a sub-5 single possible?
Is a sub-second single possible?

The answer to all of these is "yes". But clearly the absurdity of these also increase as the threshold goes down. A sub-1 single is theoretically possible (just get a 2-mover lol) but requires such an absurdly lucky scramble that for all intents and purposes, it's not actually possible in real life. Where's the crossover point where we decide that the threshold is too low to be realistically feasible?

A sub-minute global average (not just single!) is teetering on the border of plausibility. 7 TPS is high, but not that high; top cubers can burst at 10+ TPS on big cubes. A sub-30 single requires double the TPS, not just in a single short burst, but sustained throughout the whole solve. If you sacrifice efficiency for lookahead/ergonomics, then you need even higher TPS to compensate for that. That's already starting to run into human physical and mental limitations.

Given everything OP said, it would be arrogant to claim that sub-30 single is outright impossible, but I'm also a very arrogant person, so that works out just fine! Like I said, I'll eat my words if I'm still alive when it happens.
 
Let me throw this back at you, then.

Is a sub-minute single possible?
Is a sub-30 single possible?
Is a sub-20 single possible?
Is a sub-15 single possible?
Is a sub-10 single possible?
Is a sub-5 single possible?
Is a sub-second single possible?

The answer to all of these is "yes". But clearly the absurdity of these also increase as the threshold goes down. A sub-1 single is theoretically possible (just get a 2-mover lol) but requires such an absurdly lucky scramble that for all intents and purposes, it's not actually possible in real life. Where's the crossover point where we decide that the threshold is too low to be realistically feasible?

A sub-minute global average (not just single!) is teetering on the border of plausibility. 7 TPS is high, but not that high; top cubers can burst at 10+ TPS on big cubes. A sub-30 single requires double the TPS, not just in a single short burst, but sustained throughout the whole solve. If you sacrifice efficiency for lookahead/ergonomics, then you need even higher TPS to compensate for that. That's already starting to run into human physical and mental limitations.

Given everything OP said, it would be arrogant to claim that sub-30 single is outright impossible, but I'm also a very arrogant person, so that works out just fine! Like I said, I'll eat my words if I'm still alive when it happens.
true but a better method might be invented making the tps needed to be about 13. and we all know 13tps is possible
 

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and we all know 13tps is possible
13 TPS is possible on 3x3 (which is carried heavily by the fact that LL is very high TPS and a large portion of the solve can be planned in inspection), but to get that on a big cube is insane due to worse hardware and more difficult lookahead. That is double the TPS on Max's WR solve. And all this on a method that is supposedly significantly more efficient than ones currently used, which means it is less intuitive, making lookahead even harder. I think a sub-minute 7x7 single is plausible, but sub-30 is patently insane.
 
The problem with this outside-view argument is that we actually know better now.
The thing is, this was always our downfall. People weren't guessing or pulling barriers out of thin air. There was always solid reasoning for proposing these theoretical boundaries. The man who I mentioned saying he was reluctant to give a final destination for 3^3 after having been wrong so many times, who still ultimately said a sub-5 single would never happen in competition at least, used that exact reasoning: Finally actually knowing better. He thought he knew better now because, well, he did, but only better than he knew before, not as well as he would come to know.

There are parallels to this in maths and science itself. When many scientists refuted the idea of manmade machines capable of sustaining prolonged flight, they weren't being haters; they felt they knew better than dreamers of centuries past due to new knowledge of material sciences, the weights involved, the energy requirements, and aerodynamics. It seemed we finally outright knew it was impossible. And they did know more than people of the past, much more, but they were still proven wrong in 1903.

Then they said artificially reaching speeds beyond Mach 1 (the speed of sound) was impossible for complex, well-explained reasons, but that sentiment too was shut down. Of course one thing they could definitely say was that we weren't actually winning the battle with gravity so efficiently that we could escape the Earth's hold itself and go to the moon due to energy restraints, but we did that a mere 66 years after developing the first crude, mostly wooden, barely functional airplanes even though it was easily thousands of times more difficult than the original achievement.

The big one now is that we'll never exceed c (a physics concept better known as the speed of light although it actually seems to be the universal speed limit of causality itself). So many physicists give a big "nope" and say that's pretty much the one thing in the universe we can 100% say can never happen since it's the speed of causality itself. But now that we know "empty" spacetime itself isn't actually nothingness and is pliable and manipulatable, many physicists predict we might eventually harness intense energy to pry open so-called "wormholes", creating a bridge between distant points, and effectively travelling faster than c without ever technically violating it. Crazy stuff. It's almost like the only truly impossible thing is being correct about something being impossible.
most top solvers are moving towards slightly sacrificing move efficiency in exchange for lookahead
This is true, Max Park's infamous "don't think, just solve" ideology. But because it's currently trending doesn't mean it's correct or will continue eternally. Trends change, similar to how many people are beginning to wonder if solving on one color might have actually been a better idea than color neutrality all along; after all, five years gaining familiarity with one color arguably requires thirty years for a color neutral solver to gain the same familiarity with that given color as a base. It's becoming more and more difficult to say which is best (I concede this as a color neutral solver).

But even if this trend continues, as lookahead begins to level out, efficiency reenters the picture as the only way to improve (besides TPS).
The cubers then did not expect big cube hardware to have improved
This is true, but they should have, and we should now as well. I'm sure a development as big as magnetic cubes is a good way off, but it'll happen (and much bigger), and even small improvements add up over time. Imagine what sort of cube could be produced even today if the task were assigned to NASA engineers responsible for creating rovers and space telescopes that we can't repair once they're launched. Obviously that's a tall order, but the point is that cubes can and will improve vastly over time, especially as manufacturing price decreases dramatically as always tends to happen with new inventions.
And considering that the move count increases quadratically
Despite the increase in pieces and the increase in so-far typically required moves, the known theoretical minimum required move counts actually, perhaps counterintuitively, haven't increased even close to quadratically from 2^3 to 3^3 to 4^3. It didn't even so much as double from 2^3 to 3^3, and the skills involved don't really change much from 5^3 on. That's why it's always the same people who dominate the big cubes; if you're the best in the world at 6^3, you're usually the best at 7^3 too and the same would be true of 8^3 if it were practiced as much.

Above all, one thing I should point out is that I wasn't necessarily predicting that we'll have a sub-minute 7^3 single in another ten or eleven years; I was just pointing out how quickly we have been proven wrong in the past about things that were said to be impossible or to require centuries. My primary point was only that it will happen eventually even if it does take a century but I would feel more comfortable saying twenty years or even, yes, ten or eleven years provided the sheer number of cubers continues to increase dramatically.

My "predictions" are cheating though because I used Reading Steiner.
 
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nothing is impossible
Youll Do It For Him Steven Universe GIF
 
Nelson Mandela said 'Everything is always impossible until somebody does it.'
It is possible to move objects just by thinking about them, although it is very difficult and most people do not have the patience to learn. Yet, it means that it is possible to solve a cube without even picking it up, hence there would be no limit to the TPS and so-called impossible times become possible. Personally I don't think the word 'impossible' is very useful, I avoid it at all costs.
 
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