Should events be dropped for the 2021 Weekly Competition?

[Mike Hughey]

Some additional information, for what it's worth. Again, I'm not sure this sort of information should be a determining factor in dropping events, but it might be useful to know, if for no other reason than to avoid inaccurate speculations about event popularity.

Number of different people who performed at least one solve in the following events at some time this year (2020) (this list includes all events that are not WCA events except the two that may not be removed by my decree, 6x6x6 BLD and 7x7x7 BLD):
3x3x3 with Feet: 83
3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 152
2-4 Relay: 411
2-5 Relay: 272
2-6 Relay: 156
2-7 Relay: 136
Kilominx: 144
Mini Guildford: 141
Redi Cube: 126
Master Pyraminx: 76
15 Puzzle: 98
Speed Fewest Moves: 79
Mirror Blocks: 157
Curvy Copter: 26

I'll go ahead and throw in here that I'd also really prefer to not remove 3x3x3 with feet. It still feels too early after the WCA removed the event officially - this is a nice outlet for people who lost that, and we had some really good competition between Lim Hung and Jinseo Hong this year, including a better than WR average by Lim Hung. It seems worthwhile to keep on that basis alone.

 

[qwr]

when you put it that way I don't want to remove any events

 

[DNF_Cuber]

when you put it that way I don't want to remove any events

I still think 2-6 isn't unique at all, so it's not adding anything. That is the one I most want to remove

 

[xyzzy]

Relays are ****ing useless. Its just who is the best at the biggest puzzle. And we have these puzzles anyway^^

Squan and clock take up a pretty significant chunk of the time of mini Guildford for me and neither of those is a "big" puzzle, lol.

---

That said, voting again to take out 2-5 and 2-6 relays. 2-4 can stay as something that's beginner friendly; 2-7 is (imo) more interesting since you're solving more different sizes, each with different intricacies. (In theory, 2-8 or 2-9 would be even better, but those would really be too long and hardware quality/availability become issues too.) 2-5 and 2-6 are just redundant in-betweens.

It's a fair point that who wins the 2-x relay events is usually whoever's best at the big cubes, but I still think relays are fun regardless.

 

[VIBE_ZT]

Glad to see some Curvy Copter love here

Also I can totally agree on some of the stuff being said here. I am always coming back to this weekly competition because I feel like it is unique in so many ways, especially because of the diverse and rather comprehensive selection of events being offered.

And with that being said, I don't actually wish for any event to be removed, simply because the events I personally don't like aren't events that I do. Therefore, I don't see them as just "taking up space" because at on point (like with Speed FMC) there was some real passion and interest in it! Just because I don't personally share said interest doesn't mean I'm going to want to advocate for the removal of it for everyone else.

TL;DR I am personally not going to advocate for the removal of any event as of yet, because I feel that they all have their place.

Squan and clock take up a pretty significant chunk of the time of mini Guildford for me and neither of those is a "big" puzzle, lol.

---

That said, voting again to take out 2-5 and 2-6 relays. 2-4 can stay as something that's beginner friendly; 2-7 is (imo) more interesting since you're solving more different sizes, each with different intricacies. (In theory, 2-8 or 2-9 would be even better, but those would really be too long and hardware quality/availability become issues too.) 2-5 and 2-6 are just redundant in-betweens.

It's a fair point that who wins the 2-x relay events is usually whoever's best at the big cubes, but I still think relays are fun regardless.

I agree with this a lot.
I will also say that, from a completely non-cubing-related perspective, having that continuity from 2-4 all the way to 2-7 linearly is just... so satisfying.

 

[ichcubegerne]

Everyone just be like "We should remove this event, because I dont like it"...

My opinions:

Remove SpeedFMC: I feel that this has become a pure chore to do when going for completion. Its not adding anything new to the existing FMC event, besides luck to find the good starts and continuations quickly. I feel that anyone, who does/did it seriously agrees with me and the low participation numbers reflect that pretty well.

Remove the Relays (or at least part of them): It just almost purely comes down to the person, who is the best at the biggest puzzle in the relay. Thats it. Is that really an event that brings something new? I dont think so. I feel like all arguments for keeping it are "some people enjoy it", but thats the case for ALL events that exist. If you look at the participation numbers of especially the high relays, youll see that they are considerably lower as for the highest puzzle, and thats a thing to consider, since people who did this puzzle are mostly having the possibility to also do the relay, but choose not to.

To the people that dont want anything removed:
Why do you wanna keep events that no one really enjoys for more than 2 weeks? I feel like a weekly comp should be easily completable in a week, but for doing all non BLD Events and no (Speed)FMC , i need about 4 hours. With (Speed)FMC and small BLD events that gets up 8 hours. Thats not something anyone can easily do in a week, especially since thats pure participation time and no warmup or anything.
And without bragging I am quite fast at bigger cubes, so I am in comparison a pretty quick person in completing the weekly comp. The average cuber would probably take up to 12 hours.

Squan and clock take up a pretty significant chunk of the time of mini Guildford for me and neither of those is a "big" puzzle, lol.

---

That said, voting again to take out 2-5 and 2-6 relays. 2-4 can stay as something that's beginner friendly; 2-7 is (imo) more interesting since you're solving more different sizes, each with different intricacies. (In theory, 2-8 or 2-9 would be even better, but those would really be too long and hardware quality/availability become issues too.) 2-5 and 2-6 are just redundant in-betweens.

It's a fair point that who wins the 2-x relay events is usually whoever's best at the big cubes, but I still think relays are fun regardless.

I dont consider Guildford to be a Relay tho. I just referenced to Events with "Relay" in their name
I know thats not the definition, I am fine with guildford. Its some kind of who is a good allrounder at smaller events.

Some additional information, for what it's worth. Again, I'm not sure this sort of information should be a determining factor in dropping events, but it might be useful to know, if for no other reason than to avoid inaccurate speculations about event popularity.

Number of different people who performed at least one solve in the following events at some time this year (2020) (this list includes all events that are not WCA events except the two that may not be removed by my decree, 6x6x6 BLD and 7x7x7 BLD):
3x3x3 with Feet: 83
3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 152
2-4 Relay: 411
2-5 Relay: 272
2-6 Relay: 156
2-7 Relay: 136
Kilominx: 144
Mini Guildford: 141
Redi Cube: 126
Master Pyraminx: 76
15 Puzzle: 98
Speed Fewest Moves: 79
Mirror Blocks: 157
Curvy Copter: 26

I'll go ahead and throw in here that I'd also really prefer to not remove 3x3x3 with feet. It still feels too early after the WCA removed the event officially - this is a nice outlet for people who lost that, and we had some really good competition between Lim Hung and Jinseo Hong this year, including a better than WR average by Lim Hung. It seems worthwhile to keep on that basis alone.

I would be interested in the additional redoing stat. Like How many different persons competed at least 5/10 times in the respected event

 

[EngiNerdBrian]

I think any event that offers a unique solving challenge should remain regardless of participation levels or WCA status. Match the scramble, feet, & curvy copter are good examples of this idea. IMO 2-4 & 2-7 are valuable and unique; 2-4 promotes speed in the classic sized NxNs & 2-7 conversely rewards big cube speed. IMO 2-5 & 2-6 relays are just filler events between these 2 bounds but people do compete in and enjoy them so I don’t see the harm in keeping them since members of our community enjoy participating in this event.

I don’t think we should limit events based on time or feasibility to compete in every event each week. The fact that there are so many events to choose from is a good concept that promotes and encourages diverse practice for each of us.

I have always viewed the weekly competition as an opportunity to compete in events INDIVIDUALLY and and check my progress/results against others in that single event. I could personally care less about my weekly point total & I’d think our casually competing members & those who want to specialize and not be a fantastic all around elite cuber would feel similarly. I think the more the weekly competition enables participation in any unique event the more valuable the weekly comp is to the community.

 

[ichcubegerne]

I don’t think we should limit events based on time or feasibility to compete in every event each week. The fact that there are so many events to choose from is a good concept that promotes and encourages diverse practice for each of us.

I have always viewed the weekly competition as an opportunity to compete in events INDIVIDUALLY and and check my progress/results against others in that single event. I could personally care less about my weekly point total & I’d think our casually competing members & those who want to specialize and not be a fantastic all around elite cuber would feel similarly. I think the more the weekly competition enables participation in any unique event the more valuable the weekly comp is to the community.

Finally someone who can argue that.

I agree, but that also means that you dont want events with low participation numbers in, correct?

 

[abunickabhi]

I do not feel there is a need to remove any events for the year 2021. Since there were 4 events added in the year 2020, which is a tad too much, we can give a break for 2021 and continue with the existing 34 events. I prefer the formats of some events to be changed though. Making 3BLD/4BLD/5BLD ao5 and Curvy copter mo3.

It is good to know Match the scramble has been the longest running event (since 2008, the creater of SS comps also liked it) and I enjoy participating in it. It is good that 3x3 with Feet continues to exist on the Forum, although I have lost interest to partcipate this year.

Its sad to see only 26 unique participants for curvy copter in the year 2020. I personally have not completely done an ao5 in that event. Adding FTO instead of curvy copter will seem reasonable, or adding it alongside CC(curvy copter) will be good. 15 Puzzle and Mirror blocks are easier for newer cubers to contest in, but SpeedFMC is a bit brainer event and I feel doing it every week is tough on anyone. I can only do speedFMC once in a while as it takes up a lot of my mental energy and resources.

Lastly, I agree with @Mike Hughey , 6BLD and 7BLD should continue even if there is no-show some weeks. In fact, I would love to have these events be made into mo3, so that people like Graham and Enoch can get UWR in those events registered on the SS comp database.

Happy Cubing, U2 F E' F' M F' M' F2 E F' U2 !

 

[EngiNerdBrian]

I agree, but that also means that you dont want events with low participation numbers in, correct?

Not necessarily. I think it’s more valuable to have an event that few people compete in than it is costly to the rest of us to have to look at the icon. I’d expect the opposite opinion from those who compete in everything or as many events as possible.

While some events are less desirable/unique than others I just don’t see the real harm in having more events since this comp is digital and there are no physical resources or scheduling restraints.

 

[Mike Hughey]

I think it’s more valuable to have an event that few people compete in than it is costly to the rest of us to have to look at the icon.

One thing that has occurred to me for the past year or two is that perhaps I should rearrange the icons/event order so that they come closer to following popularity. Perhaps have all official WCA events first, followed by the others in an approximate correlation to their popularity. That would decrease the "pain" of having to look at the icon.

 

[xyzzy]

One thing that has occurred to me for the past year or two is that perhaps I should rearrange the icons/event order so that they come closer to following popularity. Perhaps have all official WCA events first, followed by the others in an approximate correlation to their popularity. That would decrease the "pain" of having to look at the icon.

Another idea: what if we get to rearrange the icons to our liking ourselves?

 

[Keroma12]

I would consider changing the relays to 2-7, 2-4, and 5-7.

One thing that has occurred to me for the past year or two is that perhaps I should rearrange the icons/event order so that they come closer to following popularity. Perhaps have all official WCA events first, followed by the others in an approximate correlation to their popularity. That would decrease the "pain" of having to look at the icon.

Maybe the events could be grouped (like, NxNs, Bld, etc.), possibly with a toggle on each group to hide an entire group at once. Although I don't know exactly what the groupings would be.

 

[Garf]

Keep the relays. They are fun.
Almost to sub-1 on 4x4, so why remove 2-3-4 relay?

 

[Mike Hughey]

I would be interested in the additional redoing stat. Like How many different persons competed at least 5/10 times in the respected event

5 times / 10 times in 2020:
3x3x3 with Feet: 15 / 8
3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 28 / 13
2-4 Relay: 149 / 80
2-5 Relay: 96 / 49
2-6 Relay: 49 / 25
2-7 Relay: 44 / 20
Kilominx: 52 / 28
Mini Guildford: 40 / 22
Redi Cube: 57 / 37
Master Pyraminx: 34 / 18
15 Puzzle: 44 / 26
Speed Fewest Moves: 22 / 9
Mirror Blocks: 49 / 23
Curvy Copter: 14 / 9

Thought I would try once sorting by popularity from the previous week (ignoring WCA official status); interesting results. Note 7x7x7 BLD was not included because no one had a success last week; I would obviously need to fix that. I would also obviously not do this; I would put all WCA events first, then the rest by popularity. Still, this is interesting.

 

[BenChristman1]

5 times / 10 times in 2020:
3x3x3 with Feet: 15 / 8
3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 28 / 13
2-4 Relay: 149 / 80
2-5 Relay: 96 / 49
2-6 Relay: 49 / 25
2-7 Relay: 44 / 20
Kilominx: 52 / 28
Mini Guildford: 40 / 22
Redi Cube: 57 / 37
Master Pyraminx: 34 / 18
15 Puzzle: 44 / 26
Speed Fewest Moves: 22 / 9
Mirror Blocks: 49 / 23
Curvy Copter: 14 / 9

Thought I would try once sorting by popularity from the previous week (ignoring WCA official status); interesting results. Note 7x7x7 BLD was not included because no one had a success last week; I would obviously need to fix that. I would also obviously not do this; I would put all WCA events first, then the rest by popularity. Still, this is interesting.

I think that all of these are significant enough numbers to keep every event. A lot of “respected” people on the forums are arguing to keep curvy copter (they are likely those 9 people that have competed in it 10+ times), and get rid of Speed FMC, but, as the numbers show, CC and Speed FMC have the 2nd least number of 10 time competitors (feet), so should we really be getting rid of any events?

Sure, there are over 170 competitors a lot of weeks, but how many of them consistently participate every week? I would estimate that number to be 100-120 (this may be way off, I’m not sure). That means that (at the minumum), 7.5% of consistent competitors have competed in CC and Speed FMC 10+ times this year. At Worlds 2019, 52/833 competitors (6.2%) competed in Feet. The event got removed a few months later, and a lot of people were mad. If we remove events from the Weekly Comp, people who didn’t necessarily compete in the removed event(s) will not be happy. It gives more choices. People want to have the choice to do more/different events.

And lastly, there’s the argument that it’s a week-long, online comp, so there is no schedule. There is no good reason to get rid of anything, because if you don’t want to compete in an event, then don’t do it.

 

[VIBE_ZT]

I think that all of these are significant enough numbers to keep every event. A lot of “respected” people on the forums are arguing to keep curvy copter (they are likely those 9 people that have competed in it 10+ times), and get rid of Speed FMC, but, as the numbers show, CC and Speed FMC have the 2nd least number of 10 time competitors (feet), so should we really be getting rid of any events?

Sure, there are over 170 competitors a lot of weeks, but how many of them consistently participate every week? I would estimate that number to be 100-120 (this may be way off, I’m not sure). That means that (at the minumum), 7.5% of consistent competitors have competed in CC and Speed FMC 10+ times this year. At Worlds 2019, 52/833 competitors (6.2%) competed in Feet. The event got removed a few months later, and a lot of people were mad. If we remove events from the Weekly Comp, people who didn’t necessarily compete in the removed event(s) will not be happy. It gives more choices. People want to have the choice to do more/different events.

And lastly, there’s the argument that it’s a week-long, online comp, so there is no schedule. There is no good reason to get rid of anything, because if you don’t want to compete in an event, then don’t do it.

I agree with this a lot. It's so true that statistics may not show the full picture, whereas the numbers do.

The way I see it (as one of the people who do CC), there is really no harm in keeping the events that... may not have a lot of competition. For those who don't do them... just skip over them. You literally do not have to compete in them if you don't like them.

I get the idea of not wanting the website just... Chock full of events.... but at this point there are only a few.

And now since only 2 events at absolute most per year are going to be added for the forseeable future, I don't see the need to remove any event as of 2021. That may change in the future, though. We will see.

 

[Mike Hughey]

I think at this point, it seems like the only person on this thread who would be truly disappointed with not removing events is ichcubegerne. Although I respect his opinion very much and would like to make him happy, it seems like there is much justification for keeping almost all of the events for another year, at least.

The one event I still find myself wondering about, though, is speed fewest moves. It was somewhat popular at first, but quickly died off because people seemed to find it a not very interesting event. It was an event that seemed to have a lot of potential, but has apparently not lived up to that potential.

I am inclined at this point to not remove any of the relays this year, unless there is a sudden groundswell to do so from many people on this thread in the next week or so. (But I am open to reconsidering if there is such an interest displayed by numerous people on this thread.)

But I do wonder about speed fewest moves. What are opinions on that event? Is it possible this is simply an event that should not have been added because it is not interesting?

 

[Sub1Hour]

I think at this point, it seems like the only person on this thread who would be truly disappointed with not removing events is ichcubegerne. Although I respect his opinion very much and would like to make him happy, it seems like there is much justification for keeping almost all of the events for another year, at least.

The one event I still find myself wondering about, though, is speed fewest moves. It was somewhat popular at first, but quickly died off because people seemed to find it a not very interesting event. It was an event that seemed to have a lot of potential, but has apparently not lived up to that potential.

I am inclined at this point to not remove any of the relays this year, unless there is a sudden groundswell to do so from many people on this thread in the next week or so. (But I am open to reconsidering if there is such an interest displayed by numerous people on this thread.)

But I do wonder about speed fewest moves. What are opinions on that event? Is it possible this is simply an event that should not have been added because it is not interesting?

As long as some people find enjoyment in Speed FMC more than people despise it, I say keep it. There aren't too many events quite yet, it's pretty feasible to complete all of the events throughout a week. The weekly comp is far from too full IMO, however, that might not be the case later on.

 

[DNF_Cuber]

I think at this point, it seems like the only person on this thread who would be truly disappointed with not removing events is ichcubegerne. Although I respect his opinion very much and would like to make him happy, it seems like there is much justification for keeping almost all of the events for another year, at least.

The one event I still find myself wondering about, though, is speed fewest moves. It was somewhat popular at first, but quickly died off because people seemed to find it a not very interesting event. It was an event that seemed to have a lot of potential, but has apparently not lived up to that potential.

I am inclined at this point to not remove any of the relays this year, unless there is a sudden groundswell to do so from many people on this thread in the next week or so. (But I am open to reconsidering if there is such an interest displayed by numerous people on this thread.)

But I do wonder about speed fewest moves. What are opinions on that event? Is it possible this is simply an event that should not have been added because it is not interesting?

I feel like speed fewest moves is something that isn't really worthwhile since you are basically doing a sloppy job of FMC by doing it faster. The best part of FMC in my opinion is being creative and exploring different solutions, which is why Speed FMC isn't much fun by comparison.