The Gan Debate Thread

[Owen Morrison]

In one of speedcubing.org's recent videos, Daniel proves that all Gan cubes are basically the same by putting together a cube that uses pieces from the 5 most recent Gan 3x3s.

 

[Sub1Hour]

I know this is an old post, but I want you to answer this and tell me if I’m just being silly or if I’m actually making a decent point here. For the average cuber, how much of the hype for the new Gan cubes comes from Gan marketing their products on platforms like Instagram, and how much of the hype comes from places like cube stores and cubing youtubers? I feel like back when I was a mere uneducated slow cuber who was not on these forums, wondering which cube was the best, I would go to TheCubicle’s website, and see on the homepage “awesome new cool different Cube from Gan, the Gan xs”,

I would say that most of the hype comes from pre-orders being out on cube stores. I don't think that many cubers are old enough to have Instagram, and if they do have Instagram im not sure how much cubing they are looking for on there. I might just be weird but I never go on Instagram to see cubing stuff, I go there for athletics and stuff (probably because I prioritize athletics over cubing). I mean I was extremely hyped when I saw the RS3 2020 on TC for pre-order since I hadn't seen it anywhere else, and after looking at reviews it made me even more exited, but I don't see reviews first most of the time unless it was something like the valk elite where it was in development seemingly forever and it was a huge deal when testers got it. But I almost never buy a cube solely because I saw it listed at TC. The only time I did that was with the MGC 6x6 since my local vendor got it right as it came out and a comp happened to be the same day that they came in and since it was cheap, I got it (thats also the cube that made YJ my favorite company). But with stuff like GAN cubes, I saw the Air M promotion, got exited because I thought GAN was going to make something similar to the Air line of cubes that have superior stability to their modern cubes. Then I watched Dana's review and got upset that it was the same thing all over again. At least with the XS it was a little different from the X, so It's a better release from GAN even though it has many flaws.

Or I would type Gan xs reviews into YouTube and see all these YouTubers switching from the Gan x to the xs, as though it was a better and different cube. What I wouldn’t do is go to the Gan instagram page and see their latest post saying “brand new mechanisms with all new magnet adjustment system”. Am I the only one who feels like this? For your example with the Valk power, I don’t think that they marketed it as an “alternative.” The Valk power was the latest and greatest cube in the Valk line, and the only people who said otherwise were outside of qiyi as a company.

Again, I think that the XS was a better release from gan since it was different, but they only reason that they switched is that its different. The reason why no one that already had the X switch to the M, or people that had the XS switch to the Air M, is because they dont have a reason to, its just the same cube. The only reason I would see someone switching to the M or Air M from an X or XS is that their X/XS was dying and they wanted a replacement, and luckily for them, the M is an X and the Air M is an XS. Regarding the Valk Power, I think that Qiyi did imply that it was better, but they didn't do that to the degree that GAN did with the Air M and M. If Qiyi really wanted to say that the Valk Power was definitively better, then they wouldn't have made the Valk M that had a release that was more than a year later than the Valk Power. I also think that the community behind the Valk lineup was a little smarter in terms of knowledge on puzzle design. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people that main GAN cubes that have vast knowledge in cube design, but overall the users of the valk tend to have more experience and knowledge in cube design than GAN users. Valk users tend to be more experienced in cubing since they value stability and control instead of just pure conercutting and "Clout". That sounds kind of dumb, I know, but from the comps I have been to the faster people are the less likely the chance that they use a GAN puzzle. And since the Valk users don't main a cube for the release date or price, they just went off their own times and then chose weather to switch to the Valk Power or stay with the Valk.

Also, I hope that GAN doesn't "assassinate" Cyoubx since he is probably my favorite cubing youtube at the moment (I love your stuff bro). I actually think that your claim that GAN is paying off their sponsors isn't completely true, but I think there is a reason that many of their sponsorees switched to be with Rubik's. Maybe their sponsorees weren't being completely honest with us on their opinions and that could be the fault of either party but no matter who lied/bribed in that situation that defeats the purpose of sponsorship and makes the company disconnect from the community.

Gan makes good cubes. They make great cubes, amazing cubes. No one can deny that(I'm sure that even someone like Kit Clement(who hates Gan cubes(and also Gan)) would say that they just don't fit his preference). The problem that people have with Gan is that almost all their recent cubes have been very similar to each other. Gan doesn't make unique cubes. But their cubes are still good

I can deny that they make Amazing cubes NOW, but in the past, they were definitely making amazing cubes. The problem with GAN is that their last big jump in hardware was going from the 356 S v2 to the 356 Air. Other companies either have superior products that don't need an upgrade to stay relevant, or they are making jumps in hardware from each model to the next. For example, The original valk doesn't need an upgrade to stay relevant, but people still have a great product in the Valk Elite and Valk Power, and all of them have seen wide usage in modern competitions. Moyu has also done a great job, especially in the jump from the GTS2 to the GTS3/WRm where the product was completely different from the last and both oof those cubes have also seen very wide use comparatively. Not to mention cubes like the Meilong M and RS3 2020 coming out in the last few weeks taking the community by storm for having puzzles that have performance par or better than cubes that are 6x the price. Gan, on the other hand, hasn't made their hardware perform much better than the original Air line of cubes. In fact I think that I could get better times on the Air SM than on the X, XS, or 354 despite them being much newer since their stability is awful.

I had both and the Valk 3 was significantly better.

It was better for a lot of people, but there were still people that switched to the Power, and I can applaud Qiyi for making) 5 different puzzles that are competition viable in the MS, Valk, Valk Elite, Valk Power, and Wuwei (and also the Thunderclap v3 after a spring swap for a few people). Sure, Gan made 9 Puzzles that are competition viable, but they are all the same 2 cubes with a slight alteration in size, core, and magnets.

 

[cyoubx]

I actually think that your claim that GAN is paying off their sponsors isn't completely true

I'm not sure where you think I said this, but I'm sorry if I gave off that impression. That statement implies that sponsored cubers (myself included) have no integrity. It would be very irresponsible of me to suggest that.

The only video I can recall mentioning this at all is in a video I did with Phil where we talked about Gan cubes and sponsorship where I cite Feliks using the XS. My point was not to say that Feliks is being paid off, just that there's monetary incentive for him to use whatever is the flagship at the time. It's a bit pedantic, but saying whether someone is "paid" or "paid off" is very different. The latter implies using money to cover up a problem whereas the former just suggests that there is incentive to say good things about something, regardless of its quality. It's an important nuance in my opinion.

 

[qwr]

GAN could not release a new speedcube for a year and still be in business because they get enough publicity from Max and Feliks. Cubes from last year or two years ago are still perfectly usable. I still use my Pro Shop GTS2 with no problem.

 

[Sub1Hour]

I'm not sure where you think I said this, but I'm sorry if I gave off that impression. That statement implies that sponsored cubers (myself included) have no integrity. It would be very irresponsible of me to suggest that.

The only video I can recall mentioning this at all is in a video I did with Phil where we talked about Gan cubes and sponsorship where I cite Feliks using the XS. My point was not to say that Feliks is being paid off, just that there's monetary incentive for him to use whatever is the flagship at the time. It's a bit pedantic, but saying whether someone is "paid" or "paid off" is very different. The latter implies using money to cover up a problem whereas the former just suggests that there is incentive to say good things about something, regardless of its quality. It's an important nuance in my opinion.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear with that statement. I was referring to this sentence from @I'm A Cuber

I think that Gan is paying off everybody reviewing their products to say that each cube is new and different

I don't think that this is true at face value, but I'm sure that GAN is coaxing their sponsorees to use their products in some capacity, even if they are inferior. For example, I don't think that Rami Sbahi thinks that the 251 is the best on the market, but he uses it anyway even though the MGC Elite or Valk have a high likelihood of being better for him.

 

[ketchupcuber]

Feliks has said many times that he uses gans cube by choice and for those of you that dont remember feliks was once asked to be sponsored from moyu but refused because he liked gan more also there are many people who use the xs by choice eg one of the most respected cubing youtubers J perm

 

[PetrusQuber]

Feliks has said many times that he uses gans cube by choice and for those of you that dont remember feliks was once asked to be sponsored from moyu but refused because he liked gan more also there are many people who use the xs by choice eg one of the most respected cubing youtubers J perm

He didn’t choose Moyu because they kind of used him when he got the WR on one of their cubes a while back.

 

[kubesolver]

He didn’t choose Moyu because they kind of used him when he got the WR on one of their cubes a while back.

Speaking of that. It was more evil and unenthical than anything gan has ever done by a magnitude.

 

[PetrusQuber]

Speaking of that. It was more evil and unenthical than anything gan has ever done by a magnitude.

Though not saying it was evil and unethical, just more

 

[I'm A Cuber]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear with that statement. I was referring to this sentence from @I'm A Cuber

I don't think that this is true at face value, but I'm sure that GAN is coaxing their sponsorees to use their products in some capacity, even if they are inferior. For example, I don't think that Rami Sbahi thinks that the 251 is the best on the market, but he uses it anyway even though the MGC Elite or Valk have a high likelihood of being better for him.

lol I was 99% joking

 

[Sub1Hour]

Now with the Gan 11 coming out, I'm wondering if GAN will actually make something unique for the first time in 2 years. Has there been any mech leaks?

 

[HaHaHaHeeHeeHee]

other than primary internals nothing I'm aware of

 

[Sion]

Now with the Gan 11 coming out, I'm wondering if GAN will actually make something unique for the first time in 2 years. Has there been any mech leaks?

the cubie shape is the same. It's just another assembly change to make the cube itself lighter and the core magnets. GAN changes its designs, just not where it's that visible.

 

[Sub1Hour]

GAN changes its designs, just not where it's that visible.

That's true, but I would dare to ask if they change their designs to where it matters.

 

[SpeedyCube]

In one of speedcubing.org's recent videos, Daniel proves that all Gan cubes are basically the same by putting together a cube that uses pieces from the 5 most recent Gan 3x3s.

Replying to the July 1, 2020 post. Sorry, this is a bit late, I just saw this. My job is basically fixing really complex items (I’m purposefully not being more detailed for security reasons). Putting parts from one thing into another does not make something “basically the same;” it means the two items are similar and their parts compatible — which makes sense. The same designer does, in most cases, make similar designs between products. Think break pads for cars, or computer parts. Often interchangeable but not necessarily the same.

As relates to this discussion, I think it’s fair to say that Gan cubes are similar. Maybe too similar to be sold as separate models, maybe not. The company doesn’t think so. Personally, I think as long as there is a difference in design, it works to sell them as different models. How much difference should there be? That’s up to the market to decide.

And the price? Business-wise, as much as the market will bear. If the market will bear $60 for a cube with minimum difference from the last model, so be it. But if we (the market) will only bear $30 for a cube with minimal differences in design, Gan will have to acknowledge that if they want to stay open. Ultimately, it’s up to us to decide how much is too much for a Gan cube.

 

[Cheersbigears]

Price isnt always just what people will pay. It has to ensure a profit for GAN. Bear in mind its not only the cheap plastic and magnets. Gan also have to cover research and development which they seem to do more than others, say with customisation and the 356i.

Admittedly this should only make them slightly More expensive than the competition as they also need research and development.

After research and development, Gan make decisions on which ideas go forward. They seem to be the brand who are least price driven in these decisions, they regularly bring out complicated cubes with new components, that other brands might leave on the drawing board to ensure they can hit a price point. None of these decisions necessary mean Gans R and D is better, just that the way the make decisions means their cubes are likely to be more expensive.

Additionally we need to consider marketing. Gan seem to spend significantly more sponsoring cubers, competitions, you tubers etc etc. All that costs money and the only way they can do that is by including it in the cost of a cube.

Its a pretty standard business model. And it might make you feel better (or worse!) to know that buying a gan cube is also supporting people they support like Max and Feliks, and the events they support, like the world cups.

This also means alot of what you pay isn't going into increasing the quality of the cube you're buying!

 

[brododragon]

Price isnt always just what people will pay. It has to ensure a profit for GAN. Bear in mind its not only the cheap plastic and magnets. Gan also have to cover research and development which they seem to do more than others, say with customisation and the 356i.

Admittedly this should only make them slightly More expensive than the competition as they also need research and development.

After research and development, Gan make decisions on which ideas go forward. They seem to be the brand who are least price driven in these decisions, they regularly bring out complicated cubes with new components, that other brands might leave on the drawing board to ensure they can hit a price point. None of these decisions necessary mean Gans R and D is better, just that the way the make decisions means their cubes are likely to be more expensive.

Additionally we need to consider marketing. Gan seem to spend significantly more sponsoring cubers, competitions, you tubers etc etc. All that costs money and the only way they can do that is by including it in the cost of a cube.

Its a pretty standard business model. And it might make you feel better (or worse!) to know that buying a gan cube is also supporting people they support like Max and Feliks, and the events they support, like the world cups.

This also means alot of what you pay isn't going into increasing the quality of the cube you're buying!

I think the real problem is the buisness model. They put a lot of bells and whistles most people aren't going to use to the fill potential.

 

[BenChristman1]

A few month bump, but I wanted to add this. A couple things that I want to say before I start:

- All prices stated here are in USD.
- The phones that are compared here have very similar specs.

There are a lot of people who compare Gan to Apple (the tech company, in case you didn’t know). This is 100% false in my opinion. These people look at Gan as a company alone, but I think that it should be compared to other cube companies.

Spoiler: Phone Comparisons

Apple’s current flagship phone, the iPhone 12, costs $700. Let’s compare that to Samsung’s flagship, the Samsung Galaxy S21, which costs $800.

Now, let’s go up to each company’s most premium phone. In Apple’s case, this is the iPhone 12 Pro Max, which comes in at $1,100. For Samsung, this is the Galaxy S21 Ultra, which costs $1,200.

Now for budget phones. Apple’s current budget phone, the iPhone SE costs $400. Samsung’s, the Galaxy A21, costs $250.

What does all of this phone comparison have to do with Gan? Well, this proves that Gan is not the “Apple of cubing,” because of the prices. I’m now going to compare Gan’s flagship and budget cubes to Qiyi and Moyu’s flagship and budget cubes.

Spoiler: Cube Comparisons

Gan’s flagship cube, the 11 M Pro, costs $65. Qiyi’s flagship, the Valk 3 Elite M costs $45. Moyu’s flagship, the Weilong WRM 2020, costs $30.

Now for budget cubes, I’ll be using the cheapest magnetic cube from each company. Gan’s budget cube, the 356 M Lite costs $27. Qiyi has the MS, which costs $8. Moyu has the MF3RS3M 2020, which costs $9, and has a dual adjustment system, which neither of the other two have.

My point here is that Apple actually isn’t the most expensive phone company, which means that Gan can’t be compared to Apple by price and by comparing it to other companies. Samsung’s flagship and premium phones outprice Apple’s by $100. Samsung has a much cheaper budget phone, however.

Now, if you look at the cube comparisons, Gan is by far more expensive than the other two companies, with both flagships and budget cubes.

I also don’t think that you can compare any of these cube companies to either of these phone companies. Samsung has a much wider range of prices than Apple (because I didn’t even include the folding and flipping phones in the comparison, which cost $1,800 and $1,200, respectively). This means that Apple’s price range is about $700, and Samsung’s is $1,550.

People say that Gan is the Apple of cubing because of their high prices, but realistically, Samsung’s phones are actually more expensive than Apple’s. This is why I don’t think that this is a very accurate comparison. I see how people may think that because of Gan’s box, which seems to mimic Apple, and their high-quality products, but that isn’t looking super deep.

I’m sure that I could do even more of an in-depth comparison if I wanted to, but I have to go right now, so I might update this post or make a new one later. Thanks to those of you who read the whole thing and made it all the way to the end!

 

[PikachuPlayz_MC]

I honestly just like gan cause it can customize to suit my fancy at the moment, and the cube feels so different when I change the magnets and springs.

 

[AlgoCuber]

Pros
1. The performance is good, and one might argue that is the best
2. Gan has come up with a lot of innovative ideas, including GES, honeycomb tracks, and black internals
3. Gan's quality is superior, and there is little leniency in the manufacturing
4. Their cubes have a lot of customization, including adjustable magnets, spring compression, and regular old tensioning
5. Gan cubes are very lightweight, nowadays hovering around 60-70 grams

Cons
1. Pricing. They have only high-end and expensive cubes that are absolutely not for people on a budget, like me. Other cubes perform around the same, or even better, at a much lower price range. For example, you could a get a WR M 2020, GTS 3 M, Tengyun V2 M, MsCube, or maybe even the RS3 M 2020 if you like it that much. They all have a spring compression system, and some have a magnet adjustment system. So I don't see myself getting a Gan cube soon.
2. You could say some of the same things about how good Gan is with other cube brands too. Gan is not the only brand that has these good qualities.

Conclusion: If you think that you can handle the price of a Gan cube, go for it. There's nothing wrong with that. They have a lot of good qualities. But if you're willing to save money to, say, buy more lube, you can buy other flagships at a lower price. That is why I personally don't have any Gan cubes.