[Help Thread] 2 look discussion - OLL and PLL

[Smiles]

Step 1: corners.
If 2 diagonal corners need to be swapped, do a Y perm.
If 2 adjacent corners need to be swapped, do a T perm (it swaps the 2 corners on the right).
If all corners are solved, move onto step 2.

Step 2: edges
Use the H, Z, Ua, or Ub algorithm depending on which case you stumble upon.

The algs you should be able to find anywhere.

And
no, you don't have to learn Aa, Ab, or E for 2-look PLL
there are only 6 algorithms necessary for 2-look PLL
yes, all 21 cases are solvable using those 6 algorithms
Example: N perm can be solved by first doing Y perm, then either Ua or Ub.

 

[tseitsei]

Thanks for the reply.

Are Y-perm and T-perm required for 2-look PLL? Cubewhiz says you just need Ua, Ub, H, Z Aa, Ab and E.

Is that right, or is it better to learn other algs.

(I am going to try to learn all 21, but just trying to get the most necessary ones learned first).

You can use E-perm instead of Y-perm and Aa (and/or) Ab perms instead of T-perm. So you can choose which algs to use for corners as long as you have 1 that can solve diagonal corner swap and 1 that can solve adjacent corner swap. So for diagonal you can use Y,E,V,Na,Nb but I would recommend Y or E because they are generally fastest. For adjacent you can use Aa,Ab,Ra,Rb,Ja,Jb, any of the 4 G perms, T, F but I would recommend J, T or A.

For edges you must use U perms, H and Z because you can't mess up your corners again

 

[SpeedCubeReview]

you need Ua, Ub, H and Z. Don't learn Aa, Ab and E. Learn either Aa, Ab or T, and then learn Y. I would suggest learning T because although it's longest, it makes learning Y (which is even longer) much easier.

When I started I didn't even know H or Z, but just did U twice when I hit those situations.

 

[TDM]

When I started I didn't even know H or Z, but just did U twice when I hit those situations.

Yes, but for 2-look it's best to know both.

 

[jms]

A lot of helpful stuff here. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it.

After reviewing what's been said here and doing some digging I'm going to use T and Y for corners, until I learn the full PLL.

 

[jms]

OK I've learnt Ua, Ub, H and Z. They flow really well so are pretty straightforward algs.

I've been looking at T and Y on Bob's Cubewhiz site, and he seems to be using a non-standard variation of the Y-perm which has a number of cube rotations in it. He says it is better/faster because it avoids having to turn the F face. It seems really awkward to learn though.

That got me thinking about variations of the same algs. I realise this is just personal preference, but do you guys think it's better to use cube rotations to try to avoid slower turns (like F turns), or do you think cube rotations slow it down more (or make it more complex) than the F turn would have in the first place?

 

[TDM]

OK I've learnt Ua, Ub, H and Z. They flow really well so are pretty straightforward algs.

I've been looking at T and Y on Bob's Cubewhiz site, and he seems to be using some non-standard variations which have a number of cube rotations in them. He says they are better/faster because they avoid having to turn the F face. They seem really awkward to learn though.

I realise this is just personal preference, but do you guys think it's better to use cube rotations to try to avoid slower turns (like F turns), or do you think cube rotations slow it down more (or make it more complex) than the F turn would have in the first place?

I'm just trying to get an idea of what the consensus is, because I'd rather learn correctly from the start, than have to un-learn bad habits later.

It depends. During F2L, I rotate to avoid F moves, but you shouldn't need to for T/Y perm. You don't need to rotate for most LL algs.

T: R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F'
Y: F R U' R' U' R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R F'

 

[Bindedsa]

It depends. During F2L, I rotate to avoid F moves, but you shouldn't need to for T/Y perm. You don't need to rotate for most LL algs.

T: R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F'
Y: F R U' R' U' R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R F'

A perm is faster IMO, mine is standard though:
l' U R' u2 L U' L' u2 R2
Standard:
l' U R' D2 R U' R' D2 R2

 

[TDM]

A perm is faster IMO, mine is standard though:
l' U R' u2 L U' L' u2 R2
Standard:
l' U R' D2 R U' R' D2 R2

Yes, but if you know Y, then T is easy to learn (and if you know T, Y is easier to learn).

 

[Bindedsa]

Yes, but if you know Y, then T is easy to learn (and if you know T, Y is easier to learn).

I didn't notice that T perm and Y perm were the same two OLLs in reverse order until after I finished OLL, but good point. I had the same problem with not noticing a lot of ZBLL are just setup moves - PLL - undo setup move with cancellations, which would have made them a lot easier to learn.

 

[King Mike]

Im almost done learning full pll its taking forever though i still havent learned the G-perms yet and its so annoying when i get a G-perm and i cant solve it

I learned Ga Perm, but I honestly dont wanna do the other 3, lol. I hate G perms cuz of lower case moves.....
I learned full PLL in 1 day, except for V perm and the other 3 G perms....

Any tips for learning V perm?? I find it a very random algorithm.

 

[Smiles]

full OLL shouldn't come when you're really fast... that makes no sense. people are just scared to learn it. you should learn all the necessary things asap. either u learn it after full PLL or you never learn it. waiting just keeps you slow for longer.

 

[Berd]

I learned Ga Perm, but I honestly dont wanna do the other 3, lol. I hate G perms cuz of lower case moves.....
I learned full PLL in 1 day, except for V perm and the other 3 G perms....

Any tips for learning V perm?? I find it a very random algorithm.

My V perm is just muscle memory, just gotta learn it...

 

[Megaminx 078]

About your sub 20 times....
What do you do to look ahead and how long does it take for you to do cross/f2l?
On a side note, I know all PLLs and 2 look OLL.

 

[Berd]

About your sub 20 times....
What do you do to look ahead and how long does it take for you to do cross/f2l?
On a side note, I know all PLLs and 2 look OLL.

I average 18.5 and I do f2l in around 12.

 

[King Mike]

About your sub 20 times....
What do you do to look ahead and how long does it take for you to do cross/f2l?
On a side note, I know all PLLs and 2 look OLL.

I average about 22 seconds...I've gotten sub 20 like 30 times before tho.
Cross is done during inspection time...I look for my first pair during my cross, cuz I memorized it during inspection.
I use F2L algorithms, so keep a steady enough pace while you are solving 1 pair, and at the the same time look for another.

Even in intuitive F2L, once it becomes muscle memory, look for your other pairs while you're solving one.

I don't do full OLL, but learning it will help SO much....especially in dot cases....it sucks to 2 look those.
Full PLL is a must. I learned around 18 of them in a day....I'm still working on V and G perms though.

My F2l is done in around 12-15 seconds....If I learned 2LLL (Full Fridrich) I would be Sub 20 easily....too bad I don't, lololol

 

[Ordway Persyn]

I've learned about 40 of the 57 OLL's. Infact, whenever I have to two look, it's usually not a good solve unless I actually had decent lookahead during F2L.
I'm in the process of learning the rest.
Also I know full PLL and heres a tip, Learn good algorithms from the start because I had to relearn a few PLL's with a better alg.

 

[joshsailscga]

My V perm is just muscle memory, just gotta learn it...

Ditto, I have no idea what the V-perm alg is anymore, my fingers just know what to do when I see the case

 

[Berd]

Ditto, I have no idea what the V-perm alg is anymore, my fingers just know what to do when I see the case [emoji14]

Try doing it 1 handed then [emoji14]

 

[PurpleBanana]

Ditto, I have no idea what the V-perm alg is anymore, my fingers just know what to do when I see the case

I could probably reconstruct the alg with a bit of difficulty, but I can't recite it anymore the way I could when I first learned the alg. I just react to what I see on the cube - place the 3-block in the front left and slide down past it on the right.

Regarding the OP's question - no, you probably don't NEED full PLL, but it certainly would be helpful to you. In my case, I've already learned full PLL, and I average 35-40 seconds, so there's definitely no need to learn full OLL for quite a while - however, there's just something that bothers me about not knowing full CFOP, working on other parts of the cube while I'm still using an inefficient LL method. So I plan to learn full OLL as soon as possible, and get it out of the way so that when I reach lower times I'm a step ahead of everybody who hasn't learned it yet.