[Help Thread] ZBLL Discussion and Help

[zzcuberman]

Same thing is true about colour neutrality but that one gets loved by every CFOP user ever.

That's not true though

 

[Thom S.]

That's not true though

It is.
Both Colour neutrality and Method Neutrality don't obviously make you faster, instead, they take away the bad solves by giving you more options.
For CN, if you have, say, an F2L Pair on white and making an XCross is turn-heavy, you could look to incorporate that pair into another colour XCross as a Cross-Corner pair.
For MN, if that same Pair doesn't yield a good XCross, you can Look if it instead could make a good 2x2x2 or FB. Half a Cross, if the edges turn out right, could be the start to a ZZ solve.

In a perfect world, Top Cubers are both, as both have different use cases.
You don't need to think of this as inspecting 6 Crosses, 8 2x2x2s and 24 FBs at once. You find a good piece and look for another.

 

[zzcuberman]

It is.
Both Colour neutrality and Method Neutrality don't obviously make you faster, instead, they take away the bad solves by giving you more options.
For CN, if you have, say, an F2L Pair on white and making an XCross is turn-heavy, you could look to incorporate that pair into another colour XCross as a Cross-Corner pair.
For MN, if that same Pair doesn't yield a good XCross, you can Look if it instead could make a good 2x2x2 or FB. Half a Cross, if the edges turn out right, could be the start to a ZZ solve.

In a perfect world, Top Cubers are both, as both have different use cases.
You don't need to think of this as inspecting 6 Crosses, 8 2x2x2s and 24 FBs at once. You find a good piece and look for another.

Color neutral does make you faster. Using multiple methods is cool but not ideal.

 

[OreKehStrah]

Color neutral does make you faster. Using multiple methods is cool but not ideal.

CN is objectively a trade off on how you are using your inspection time. Any time spent inspecting for what color to do is time that could have been spent thinking more about your solution. I think Tymon's style is what high level solving is going to converge to. He is fully CN but prioritizes white yellow to have more time to think about planning more of the solve.

In any case, this isn't really the thread to debate this stuff. It's for ZBLL.

 

[Lazy Einstein]

Color neutral does make you faster. Using multiple methods is cool but not ideal.

Depends. This thread is about ZBLL.

For ZZ-a, I'd argue against CN.

CN ZBLL recognition isn't too bad but adding advanced skills like:
- predicting OCLL from LS,
- learning AUF for all ZBLLs; and,
- using one sticker ZZF2L recognition negating the need to look at D/B faces during F2L in 99% of cases
would be heavily stifled by CN ZZ-a.

The microscopic advantage given by CN ZZ-a, for better EOline/arrow/cross cases, isn't worth the loss one would gain in fluidity, look ahead intuition, and removed pauses in recognition from the advanced ZZ-a techniques I mentioned above.

Y neutrality is the only addition to a single orientation, with ZZ-a, that is worth it imo. It already requires immense training on it's own to learn ZBLL and the advanced techniques.

For CFOP, CN is more worth it because you don't rely on 1LLL 100% of the time and F2L is less restrictive.
However, most people struggle significantly with learning ZBLL and other full 1LLL sets at all.
Learning ZBLL and more 1LLL subsets with CN CFOP even seems like it could be a deal breaker for most.

 

[zzcuberman]

Depends. This thread is about ZBLL.

For ZZ-a, I'd argue against CN.

CN ZBLL recognition isn't too bad but adding advanced skills like:
- predicting OCLL from LS,
- learning AUF for all ZBLLs; and,
- using one sticker ZZF2L recognition negating the need to look at D/B faces during F2L in 99% of cases
would be heavily stifled by CN ZZ-a.

The microscopic advantage given by CN ZZ-a, for better EOline/arrow/cross cases, isn't worth the loss one would gain in fluidity, look ahead intuition, and removed pauses in recognition from the advanced ZZ-a techniques I mentioned above.

Y neutrality is the only addition to a single orientation, with ZZ-a, that is worth it imo. It already requires immense training on it's own to learn ZBLL and the advanced techniques.

For CFOP, CN is more worth it because you don't rely on 1LLL 100% of the time and F2L is less restrictive.
However, most people struggle significantly with learning ZBLL and other full 1LLL sets at all.
Learning ZBLL and more 1LLL subsets with CN CFOP even seems like it could be a deal breaker for most.

If you're fully cn. All the things you listed shouldn't slow you down

 

[Lazy Einstein]

If you're fully cn. All the things you listed shouldn't slow you down

I can use full CN CFOP, like full OLL/PLL, only a few seconds slower than ZZ-a.
I learned CN ZZ before and CN EO was pretty rough.

With ZBLL, I'll practice algs on different faces for fun. Definitely harder to recognize the cases even using full ZBLL and being able to solve CN.

I believe with a lot of practice I could train out that deficiency but I'd rather master LSLL+AUF to virtually one look then have the ability to have a 4 bad edge 8 move EOcross over an 8 bad edge 10 move EOcross.

 

[Abram Grimsley]

Let's stay on topic, please.

 

[mencarikebenaran]

should i learn zbll for sune ?
i know some sune case, but for learning all the case i think it is not really worth it, because the sune itself is already fast, and its faster to just do sune then PLL

 

[JDAW6]

should i learn zbll for sune ?
i know some sune case, but for learning all the case i think it is not really worth it, because the sune itself is already fast, and its faster to just do sune then PLL

Some of the faster algs are worth it but not all of them tbh

 

[ProStar]

should i learn zbll for sune ?
i know some sune case, but for learning all the case i think it is not really worth it, because the sune itself is already fast, and its faster to just do sune then PLL

If you already know TULHPi, then S/AS is definitely worth it. It isn’t as large of a benefit as TUL, but it’s still better than OLL PLL

 

[OreKehStrah]

should i learn zbll for sune ?
i know some sune case, but for learning all the case i think it is not really worth it, because the sune itself is already fast, and its faster to just do sune then PLL

It's worse to only use some cases bc you then have to stop and recognize if it's a case you know or not.

You should commit to not using any and just always doing OLL PLL to not have any recog pause or learn the full set so you can see you have a Sune case and know for sure that you can do 1LLL on it.

 

[Arkwell]

I want to learn full ZB. I’ve been through a lot of SS ZB topics but none really answer my question. After learning my OLLs/PLLs I’ve always been curious about ZBLS to ZBLL. Why? Standard CFOP is a Method, ZB is a Language, the sooner you start a new language the better. I would rather challenge my brain than my hands. Of course the lower move count: 3 steps: Cross to F2L/ZBLS to ZBLL. I completely understand how hard this journey will be and I’m not taking it lightly. My only question: Is there anything else I need to add to this study list?

Thanks in advance for any help, I 100% apologize if the answer is posted somewhere I didn’t find.

 

[abunickabhi]

It's worse to only use some cases bc you then have to stop and recognize if it's a case you know or not.

You should commit to not using any and just always doing OLL PLL to not have any recog pause or learn the full set so you can see you have a Sune case and know for sure that you can do 1LLL on it.

Yes I agree, it is better to learn all the Sune ZBLL cases!

 

[Puzzle Maniac]

I want to learn full ZB. I’ve been through a lot of SS ZB topics but none really answer my question. After learning my OLLs/PLLs I’ve always been curious about ZBLS to ZBLL. Why? Standard CFOP is a Method, ZB is a Language, the sooner you start a new language the better. I would rather challenge my brain than my hands. Of course the lower move count: 3 steps: Cross to F2L/ZBLS to ZBLL. I completely understand how hard this journey will be and I’m not taking it lightly. My only question: Is there anything else I need to add to this study list?
Thanks in advance for any help, I 100% apologize if the answer is posted somewhere I didn’t find.

I hope you enjoy your ZB journey, and I'd love to hear about your progression
This is @Hazel 's ZBLL Learners Discord server, if you have it: https://discord.com/invite/bpEWSju

 

[ruffleduck]

ZB is the crown jewel of CFOP extensions. It is self-sufficient and powerful enough to stand as its own LSLL method competitive to CFOP LS/OLL/PLL and even ZZ LS/ZBLL, unlike, uh, many other attempts.

So far, pure ZB has not overtaken classical LS/OLL/PLL at the top level, but I believe it will in a couple years, viz. Xuanyi. (Not saying that you necessarily need ambitions to reach the top level if you want to learn ZB. Just something cool. And greater ZB literacy among cubers at large helps bolster ZB for the top solvers!)

ZBLL and ZBLS are very fun algorithm sets to work with. There are already plenty of resources, but there is also still a lot to discover for new algorithms. A cozy haven for both alg-learning and alg-genning enthusiasts. Best of luck on your journey

 

[Cubingmadness123]

me too I am trying to learn the ZB method but ZBLL should go first the ZBLS because a lot of ZBLS cases can be used intuitively

 

[gsingh]

Done with most of ZBLS, working on finishing TUL now (my TU is good enough to use in solves, but i'm still learning and mastering L). Hopefully I can finish up TULHPi by March!

 

[gsingh]

3.21 TUL ao100 (recog + exec). Not quite good enough for solves but it's pretty close, and I'm going to continue to practice it. I'm also going to be starting H after my next comp (Feb 8th).

 

[Hazel]

I hope you enjoy your ZB journey, and I'd love to hear about your progression
This is @Hazel 's ZBLL Learners Discord server, if you have it: https://discord.com/invite/bpEWSju

Small correction, I gave ownership of that server to @GenTheSnail years ago . Since then, they passed on ownership to somebody else. Unfortunately, it seems the server is completely dead now.