[Help Thread] ZBLL Discussion and Help

nalralz said:
Just look up some of Cyotheking's last layer videos. He is currently the worlds fastest LL solver. (I am pretty sure... he has a 2.453 average of 12)
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His LL is certainly very fast. however his video does not include OLL recognition. so his last layer is 2.7-2.9 in actual solves I would guess.

BindedSa said that his recog for full ZBLL is sub 1 and felt he still had room for improvement. I think an expert ZBLL solver with half a decades worth of practice could be around 2.0 seconds for last layer. but they would need to be an expert in all other areas of cubing.
 
OLLiver said:
Ok another topic-how would one explain ZBLL to a non-cuber?
How to explain the sheer amount of work required in a form they would understand? a good analogy anyone?
I thought of comparing it to memorising a dictionary....thoughts?
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I just started memorizing/figuring out (by hand) algorithms for ZBLL, but your signature just about covers it: "a fate worse than death."

I would compare it to memorizing all 1000+ words present in the SAT tests that we Americans have: both involve memorizing recognition and application. Some are easy to memorize, recognize, and apply (simple commutators and 2GLL's); while others are not (those nasty ZBLL's that nobody likes). Several words have the similar definitions (under different connotations) like conjugates. Okay, this isn't the best analogy, but it's a working definition.

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Anyway, onto my other stuff:
It's been a week since I decided to seriously start learning ZBLL. So far, I'm at 21 PLL's + 42 COLL's + 10 non-COLL 2GLL's + 10 non-COLL ZBLL's/ZZLL's = 83 ZBLL's. I think the reason why all this memorizing is slower than what I can normally do is because I'm figuring out most of my algorithms as opposed to looking them up on AlgDB or something like that. But I'm getting there...

I could probably get to the 100's because I know so many alternative algorithms for different COLL's; it's just that they haven't come to mind. Usually, when I find an alternative algorithm, I just memorize the case right then and there, do it a few times to get it solid, and that's that.

I'm currently using my own recognition, which is basically just recognizing edge sticker colors in relation to corner stickers.
 
OLLiver said:
Ok so maybe comparing to memorising a dictionary is similar. I would estimate the equivalent of memorising 1/10 of the oxford english dictionary is somewhat similar to the effort required for ZBLL
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What?! "Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use". Honestly, people exaggerate how hard ZBLL is to learn, with all the common triggers, similarities and derivatives, it's not really that hard. Especially once you get good at learning algs.
 
OLLiver said:
Ok so maybe comparing to memorising a dictionary is similar. I would estimate the equivalent of memorising 1/10 of the oxford english dictionary is somewhat similar to the effort required for ZBLL
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Muscle memory is very different from memorising other stuff. However I can't come up with a better analogy. (Actually comparing it to memorising the dictionary might not be all that different after all, because the perception of learning ZBLL amongst cubers might be similar to that of memorising the dictionary amongst other people (most cubers included)
 
OLLiver said:
Ok another topic-how would one explain ZBLL to a non-cuber?
How to explain the sheer amount of work required in a form they would understand? a good analogy anyone?
I thought of comparing it to memorising a dictionary....thoughts?
Click to expand...

I would probably use a wide journey's map. E.g: with OLL there would be more options to go to a ZBLL but one and simple road to go to an OLL, for ZBLLs there would direct paths to each cases but there would be a lot of paths.
 
Bindedsa said:
What?! "Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use". Honestly, people exaggerate how hard ZBLL is to learn, with all the common triggers, similarities and derivatives, it's not really that hard. Especially once you get good at learning algs.
Click to expand...

most of my ZBLLs are 18 moves long . there are 494 ZBLLS. 494*18= ~9000 moves total to memorise.
Yes I saw that. Equating words with a single quarter turn on a cube- 9000/171476 ~6% of the dictionary. I think this may be the best analogy to explain what kind of undertaking ZBLL is.

Most newbie cubers are intimated by full OLL which is only 57 relatively short Algs. ZBLL is at least 10 times more tedious at least in number of moves to memo. The process of learning all 494 to any degree of speed-worthiness is mammoth. The sheer months (if not years) of practice of recall, AUF, recognition does make ZBLL beyond a lot of people I would argue.
 
Bindedsa said:
Why would you do that?
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1. It's more fun.
2. It's easier and faster to memorize.
3. It's another challenge to take on.
Note that I don't plan on figuring out ALL of my ZBLL's, but there are some that I happen to figure out by accident or something like that. At some point, I'm probably going to need AlgDB for better algorithms, but stuff like 2GLL where there's just a combination of 2 Sunes is really easy to figure out.
 
OLLiver said:
most of my ZBLLs are 18 moves long . there are 494 ZBLLS. 494*18= ~9000 moves total to memorise.
Yes I saw that. Equating words with a single quarter turn on a cube- 9000/171476 ~6% of the dictionary. I think this may be the best analogy to explain what kind of undertaking ZBLL is.

Most newbie cubers are intimated by full OLL which is only 57 relatively short Algs. ZBLL is at least 10 times more tedious at least in number of moves to memo. The process of learning all 494 to any degree of speed-worthiness is mammoth. The sheer months (if not years) of practice of recall, AUF, recognition does make ZBLL beyond a lot of people I would argue.
Click to expand...

18 moves? You are using bad algs or using QTM which makes no sense. Equating a move with one word is completely wrong, You're saying remembering the definition of a word is the equivalent of remember R'? Ignoring triggers and similarities between algs, you're still exaggerating to a ridiculous extant.

I'm not saying full ZBLL is easy, but It's nothing like memorizing a dictionary or nearly as hard as people make it out to be. I don't have a better example, but if you really want to explain what you're doing just say something like only 3 people have done it before, even though many have tried.
 
OLLiver said:
ZBLL is at least 10 times more tedious at least in number of moves to memo. The process of learning all 494 to any degree of speed-worthiness is mammoth. The sheer months (if not years) of practice of recall, AUF, recognition does make ZBLL beyond a lot of people I would argue.
Click to expand...

First thing, find better algs for your ZBLL's (use Bindedsa's ZBLL or AlgDB). Also, theoretically, the number of OLL's to ZBLL's is closer to 9 times, not 10. However, from my own experience, the majority of the ZBLL's I know are more intuitive than some OLL's. ex: (R U R D R' U' R D' R' U R' U R U2 R') is just a T COLL cancelled into a sune. Also once you have a basic foundation with OLL's and triggers, the ZBLL's become super easy, for the most part. (ex: r U r' [R U R' U']x2 r U' r' F R U R' U' F' is just 2 easy OLLs). Also, I would not say ZBLL is beyond most people. Most people just don't have the willpower to learn it. For example, in high school, if you're taking a class, you most likely study the material every single day, in class. Every once in a while, you quizzes and tests. I think in this analogy, the quizzes are going back to learn the material from way before, (so for me and Bindedsa, that would be reviewing 2GLL). The tests are more like after you learn a big set of algs, for example all the T cases. You learn all this knowledge throughout the semester, making sure you remember everything through the quizzes and tests, and then the final in the class (I guess) you check to make sure you remember everything from that class, or full ZBLL. If this makes sense to you, that may be a decent analogy to use.
 
Bindedsa said:
18 moves? You are using bad algs or using QTM which makes no sense. Equating a move with one word is completely wrong, You're saying remembering the definition of a word is the equivalent of remember R'? Ignoring triggers and similarities between algs, you're still exaggerating to a ridiculous extant.

I'm not saying full ZBLL is easy, but It's nothing like memorizing a dictionary or nearly as hard as people make it out to be. I don't have a better example, but if you really want to explain what you're doing just say something like only 3 people have done it before, even though many have tried.
Click to expand...

BindedeSa-
1) most of the Algs of algdb.net I use are 15-19 moves on average. Are your algs shorter/move count optimal? either way would you mind emailing your Algs to me as the google doc won't let me download the sheet? [email protected] please.

2) furthermore I acknowledge that equating words and moves is perhaps inaccurate. But I would argue that remembering similar patterns whilst distinguishing between them is more complicated that remembering a words definition.
3) I guess its not too bad really. just requires a lot of motivation. I congratulate you old sport on having the dedication to learning ZBLL :)
 
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Bindedsa said:
18 moves? You are using bad algs or using QTM which makes no sense. Equating a move with one word is completely wrong, You're saying remembering the definition of a word is the equivalent of remember R'? Ignoring triggers and similarities between algs, you're still exaggerating to a ridiculous extant.

I'm not saying full ZBLL is easy, but It's nothing like memorizing a dictionary or nearly as hard as people make it out to be. I don't have a better example, but if you really want to explain what you're doing just say something like only 3 people have done it before, even though many have tried.
Click to expand...

I'd say it is perhaps more like memorising the digits of pi. It seems like it is really hard, but it is actually easier than it seems (dunno how true this is for ZBLL though) Memorising numbers is very easy compared to words.
 
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