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We need better judges.

Do you agree?

  • Strongly disagree

    Votes: 8 5.8%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 21 15.3%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 25 18.2%
  • Agree

    Votes: 53 38.7%
  • Strongly agree.

    Votes: 30 21.9%

  • Total voters
    137
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
301
Likes
358
#46
I'll agree with this basic premise.

In my 1st comp, I had *2* procedural issues, that fouled 2 solves of my 7 total at my first comp.

One was an uncleared stackmat, that I just cleared, but the judge distracted me about it, and tried to get me to stop... so I did, and called for the delegate. (I am not sure what the right ruling is, given that I was within my inspection still.)

The other... I solve using ZZ. I will use ALL my time, so I wait for the 12s mark to put the cube down and start. I got told "DNF" as my first callout... (I must say, I felt REAL in the zone because I hadn't gotten my 8s call yet, and I'd planned things pretty well.) "Uh... Delegate!"

Maybe I was unlucky. But I will say, I was annoyed, and I think with good reason. If you're going to judge... please get the procedures right. We can call over a delegate on the finer points... But really, the issues I hit were just fundamental issues.

The big thing I'd say... "Please have them PRACTICE judging solves." They need to get the basic drill right. If you have to call a delegate over on an edgey rules call... that's fine with me! But the types of errors I saw, were not the type I'd expect. Keep in mind this is my initial impression of the WCA.
 

Ranzha

Friendly, Neighbourhoodly
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
2,550
Likes
96
Location
Reno, Nevada, United States
WCA
2009HARN01
YouTube
RanzhaTheLoneVlogger
#49
The problem there was that the judge gave no call outs at all and Chris ended up getting almost 18 seconds of inspection time with no penalty. I remember the WCA made a very specific ruling on that case.
The other thing to mention is that the judge was the delegate for the competition. Iirc, the ruling was that the solve remain since it was not Chris' fault that he over-inspected.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
173
Likes
130
Location
Marietta, Georgia
WCA
2013CABR01
#50
The other thing to mention is that the judge was the delegate for the competition. Iirc, the ruling was that the solve remain since it was not Chris' fault that he over-inspected.
I think this just goes to show that it doesn't matter how experienced the judge is, everyone is liable to make a mistake every so often. I think the most important thing to take away from this thread is to just know your rights as a competitor, be aware of the situation when you compete, and know when you are eligible to ask for extra solves.
 

Kit Clement

Premium Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
1,284
Likes
504
Location
Portland, OR
WCA
2008CLEM01
YouTube
KitClement
#51
One was an uncleared stackmat, that I just cleared, but the judge distracted me about it, and tried to get me to stop... so I did, and called for the delegate. (I am not sure what the right ruling is, given that I was within my inspection still.)
This was the right resolution to this case. The judge should have let you be after you reset the timer, but it is indeed the judge's responsibility to reset that timer, so I can see even a new, well-trained judge potentially thinking that they screwed up and that the attempt needs to start over. However, the regulations are quite clear that the competitor may reset the timer and continue as normal.

The other... I solve using ZZ. I will use ALL my time, so I wait for the 12s mark to put the cube down and start. I got told "DNF" as my first callout... (I must say, I felt REAL in the zone because I hadn't gotten my 8s call yet, and I'd planned things pretty well.) "Uh... Delegate!"

Maybe I was unlucky. But I will say, I was annoyed, and I think with good reason. If you're going to judge... please get the procedures right. We can call over a delegate on the finer points... But really, the issues I hit were just fundamental issues.

The big thing I'd say... "Please have them PRACTICE judging solves." They need to get the basic drill right. If you have to call a delegate over on an edgey rules call... that's fine with me! But the types of errors I saw, were not the type I'd expect. Keep in mind this is my initial impression of the WCA.
That second case you describe is wholly unacceptable, however. At all competitions I do, I try to have a general judge training session at the beginning of the competition where new judges watch the whole process on a practice solve. Any judges I train later, I do my best to watch them judge their first solve and properly resolve any issues that come up. I agree that learning through experience is obviously the best way to learn how to judge, and maybe in the future, I will have new judges in my early day tutorial pair up and judge practice solves on each other.
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2017
Messages
141
Likes
42
Location
Ohio
WCA
2017MORT01
#52
My first comp a judge gave me a +2 on a solve for not starting the timer with my fingertips, even though I did. I did the math, and if he hadn't given me that +2, i would have made the second round of 3x3.
 
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
2,399
Likes
887
Location
Iowa, USA
WCA
2014SCHO02
YouTube
mathtornado7
#53
My first comp a judge gave me a +2 on a solve for not starting the timer with my fingertips, even though I did. I did the math, and if he hadn't given me that +2, i would have made the second round of 3x3.
If you actually did start with your fingertips you could have disputed it
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
979
Likes
600
Location
Utah
WCA
2016BAIR01
#54
My first comp a judge gave me a +2 on a solve for not starting the timer with my fingertips, even though I did. I did the math, and if he hadn't given me that +2, i would have made the second round of 3x3.
Then don't sign until it's fixed... half the problems with judges are competitors I swear...
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
301
Likes
358
#55
This was the right resolution to this case. The judge should have let you be after you reset the timer, but it is indeed the judge's responsibility to reset that timer, so I can see even a new, well-trained judge potentially thinking that they screwed up and that the attempt needs to start over. However, the regulations are quite clear that the competitor may reset the timer and continue as normal.
I agree it is correct... just annoying when you're trying to do your 1st competition solve ever... and that happens ;).

That second case you describe is wholly unacceptable, however. At all competitions I do, I try to have a general judge training session at the beginning of the competition where new judges watch the whole process on a practice solve. Any judges I train later, I do my best to watch them judge their first solve and properly resolve any issues that come up. I agree that learning through experience is obviously the best way to learn how to judge, and maybe in the future, I will have new judges in my early day tutorial pair up and judge practice solves on each other.
I totally agree on this one, and I was displeased with the judge. If my experience can stop someone else from having the same things happen. I'm happy.

Thanks for listening to me.
 
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
95
Likes
54
Location
Lothlorien
WCA
2017BATT02
#56
I did my first comp today, stayed 4 hours, had an awesome time. It wouldn't have been half as fun if I hadn't run for the first 3x3 heat (I competed in second) and judged for the remaining heats and most of 6x6. I had the time of my life and can't wait to do it again, witnessed a 6.12, gave a +2 and a couple of DNFs. I admit I made a couple of mistakes (called 8 at 9 once and misnotated that +2, but they said it was cool) but it was really fun (and the 10 year old across from me was equally good at it and had a good time). We're all human and rely on others when we make mistakes. I agree that maybe a rule sheet next to each station could have helped, maybe making that mandatory for comps that rely heavily on volunteer judges?
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
446
Likes
43
WCA
2015BUCK03
#58
I did my first comp today, stayed 4 hours, had an awesome time. It wouldn't have been half as fun if I hadn't run for the first 3x3 heat (I competed in second) and judged for the remaining heats and most of 6x6. I had the time of my life and can't wait to do it again, witnessed a 6.12, gave a +2 and a couple of DNFs. I admit I made a couple of mistakes (called 8 at 9 once and misnotated that +2, but they said it was cool) but it was really fun (and the 10 year old across from me was equally good at it and had a good time). We're all human and rely on others when we make mistakes. I agree that maybe a rule sheet next to each station could have helped, maybe making that mandatory for comps that rely heavily on volunteer judges?
Yeah I think a rule sheet could help! One in going to has a practice comp/meeting the day before. <--- I think that's a really good idea
 
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
119
Likes
21
Location
London, UK
WCA
2015MANS04
#60
Having read through all of the thread, there are some good points that have been made and some points that wouldn't make much difference in my opinion.

Do we need better judges? Hard to tell, as 99% of all my comps are in the UK, so I don't have much material to compare with. However, quality of judges is an important thing to make competitions fun for everyone, as well as having competitions that run smoother.

In the UK most judges are competitors that have been to a few competitions before, and are therefor more used to procedures, but we do have a group-wide introduction to competing for all competitors (though aimed at the new ones) before we start 3x3, to explain how everything works, which includes how to judge.
People that will be judging for the first time will generally shadow an experienced judge for a few solves first, before then judging themselves while being shadowed by their 'mentor' (so to say), to make sure they're doing a good job.
As an organiser, when I'm not judging myself, I try to keep an eye out and more or less check the judges to make sure nothing is going wrong. (Especially during blind, where sometimes judges lose focus and the cardboard is not correctly placed in the line of sight). Delegates at UK comps tend to do the same. That way there is always a possibility to intervene when needed, and use it as a moment to teach the judge.
Also, since we have a lot of experienced cubers in the UK, they correct judges as well when needed. Communication is key here. It's in the interest of all the competitors to have enough people that are willing to judge, and that can judge in a proper way. By taking the time as a competitor to judge in other groups, as well as teaching a judge when they make a mistake (as opposed to just moaning about it), you create an atmosphere where people are willing to judge, as well as making them better judges, creating a win-win situation.
 

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