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We need better judges.

Do you agree?

  • Strongly disagree

    Votes: 8 5.8%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 21 15.3%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 25 18.2%
  • Agree

    Votes: 53 38.7%
  • Strongly agree.

    Votes: 30 21.9%

  • Total voters
    137
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MASTERMIND2368
Thread starter #1
Just wanted to bring something up.

We need better judges. Maybe we don't need to do the test I was talking about, but down here in the south, we suck at judges. At Crossroads, I saw many Judges sign their name on the score card before I even did my solve! I could easily wright something down, and even if you guys call BS, he/she is still lying that the approve of a time that is non-existent. Another thing, He fixed it, but someone wrote 16.x .+2 =19.x . If I hadn't noticed it, I would have got a 19 instead of a 18. My friend, John Albright also caught a little girl judging fall asleep (Will try to get the footage.) Like c'mon guys, we need to get all that stuff fixed. This also ties into my post about not warming up with cubes. Any thoughts on this?

Edit: Someone said something that made me think of another thing that happened. Someone said 8 secs when it had been about two and 12 when It had been about four.
 
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#2
I Agree, but there's not a whole lot that can be done about it. Especially when volunteers take up ~80% of the judging positions in the average comp.

If you think something should be done about it, come up with an idea that could fix this e.g. Judging seminar before the comp.

I've concluded with these points cos I've seen this discussion many times before and there's no simple solution.
 
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Jaysammey777
#4
I don't seem to recall that you volunteered to judge even once, so it's not like you're actively helping to solve the problem. Considering we give a description of how to judge to each volunteer that does not know how to judge and there are sheets provided at every judging station, there is not a whole lot more we can do besides relying on competitors like yourself to step up and help at a competition.
 
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#5
I don't seem to recall that you volunteered to judge even once, so it's not like you're actively helping to solve the problem. Considering we give a description of how to judge to each volunteer that does not know how to judge and there are sheets provided at every judging station, there is not a whole lot more we can do besides relying on competitors like yourself to step up and help at a competition.
There's the problem right there, if competitors would rather complain about bad judges on the forum than actually volunteer at a comp.
 
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#6
^that aside:

I think the is a major problem as well. Like FCM was saying, the delegate or organizer should have a quick, but in-depth teaching period before the comp starts. Then during the competition the delegate and organizers should keep an eye on the judges. If there are some judges not doing their job then the delegate should have a talk with them and then watch them closely for the next few times.

I talk about this a little bit in my most recent podcast episode: https://www.spreaker.com/user/9520971/interview-best-2x2-and-world-records-tcc
 
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#7
3...2...meh

^that aside:

I think the is a major problem as well. Like FCM was saying, the delegate or organizer should have a quick, but in-depth teaching period before the comp starts. Then during the competition the delegate and organizers should keep an eye on the judges. If there are some judges not doing their job then the delegate should have a talk with them and then watch them closely for the next few times.

I talk about this a little bit in my most recent podcast episode: http://thecornercutterpodcast.buzzsprout.com/
+1. I have been a judge quite a few times but i remember being a bjudge one/twice lol.

I think the delegate should converse with the volunteers beforehand
 

Kit Clement

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#8
Some real solutions to this problem:

  • Fewer comps. Volunteers are the basis for having competitions, and even our best volunteers can't be judging non-stop unless we take more time into planning competitions better.
  • Higher registration fees. This will allow us to have better compensation for volunteering competitors or for outside volunteers that go through more than a 3 minute training session.
Every other solution posed here does not really address the problem. In-depth teaching periods are done at competitions before the start of the day, and you still get plenty of judges that make errors because you can't simply make everything from any quick teaching session stick during a competition. I sit down with every new judge for at least 3 minutes or so, and this still does not fix the issue. Judging quizzes have been proposed before, but passing any test never implies that a person has practical knowledge regarding that test.

I respect that there are plenty of people that want judging at WCA competitions to be at the professional level of a competition like Nationals at every event. But if we are to make that happen, the way the WCA operates will have to change drastically.
 
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#9
Just wanted to bring something up.

We need better judges. Maybe we don't need to do the test I was talking about, but down here in the south, we suck at judges. At Crossroads, I saw many Judges sign their name on the score card before I even did my solve! I could easily wright something down, and even if you guys call BS, he/she is still lying that the approve of a time that is non-existent. Another thing, He fixed it, but someone wrote 16.x .+2 =19.x . If I hadn't noticed it, I would have got a 19 instead of a 18. My friend, John Albright also caught a little girl judging fall asleep (Will try to get the footage.) Like c'mon guys, we need to get all that stuff fixed. This also ties into my post about not warming up with cubes. Any thoughts on this?
When the competitors signed their name before the attempt, did you tell them not to do that and explain why they shouldn't?

Mistakes like the judge writing 16+2=19 shouldn't be a problem because the competitor is actually REQUIRED to check the time that the judge writes down, and sign to confirm that it is correct.

It's not that useful complaining. You actually have to be proactive about it.
 
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#10
When the competitors signed their name before the attempt, did you tell them not to do that and explain why they shouldn't?

Mistakes like the judge writing 16+2=19 shouldn't be a problem because the competitor is actually REQUIRED to check the time that the judge writes down, and sign to confirm that it is correct.

It's not that useful complaining. You actually have to be proactive about it.
Experiences with bad judges as a competitor:
1: on my last solve of my first and only NR average before lifting the cube cover he shouted (yes shouted) something that would translate to: "Israeli NR" which was probably very distracting to all the other competitors. As for me instead of thinking about my solve during inspection I was thinking about why he shouted that... I went on to DNF that solve.

2: in Pyraminx finals at a comp I was really nervous because I only get to compete once a year and I wanted to do well. I went up to solve with a warmup pyra (with was my main but I switched in the middle of the average because my main was too unstable. I don't remember if this was in inspection or while I was solving but the judge took my warmup pyra and started with it and then had a pop... I went on to DNF that solve.

3: in 3x3 finals multiple judges asked me what my main was while inspecting... really annoying.
 
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#11
Experiences with bad judges as a competitor:
1: on my last solve of my first and only NR average before lifting the cube cover he shouted (yes shouted) something that would translate to: "Israeli NR" which was probably very distracting to all the other competitors. As for me instead of thinking about my solve during inspection I was thinking about why he shouted that... I went on to DNF that solve.

2: in Pyraminx finals at a comp I was really nervous because I only get to compete once a year and I wanted to do well. I went up to solve with a warmup pyra (with was my main but I switched in the middle of the average because my main was too unstable. I don't remember if this was in inspection or while I was solving but the judge took my warmup pyra and started with it and then had a pop... I went on to DNF that solve.

3: in 3x3 finals multiple judges asked me what my main was while inspecting... really annoying.
In all three situations you should have involved the delegate who would have reprimanded the judge and depending on circumstances, and would most probably have replaced your attempt with an extra in cases 2 and 3, and quite possibly in case 1 as well.

Delegates aren't psychic and need to be told about cases like this as soon as they happen so that they can actually do something about it.
 
M

Malkom

Guest
#12
Age restriction should solve most problems, most of the times my judge has been annoying, inattentive or lacking basic knowledge of the regs the judge has been <11 years old. Parents and other adults can also make mistakes but their higher age mean they understand social rules and don't annoy the solver as easily (like the 7 year old who sang Taylor swift during my solve) and are used to follow rules unlike smaller kids.
 
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#13
Age restriction should solve most problems, most of the times my judge has been annoying, inattentive or lacking basic knowledge of the regs the judge has been <11 years old. Parents and other adults can also make mistakes but their higher age mean they understand social rules and don't annoy the solver as easily (like the 7 year old who sang Taylor swift during my solve) and are used to follow rules unlike smaller kids.
I disagree. I've had a 10 year old judge who took judging very seriously and knew the exact procedure and could even recite all 8 reasons for a +2. I've had a 20 something year old judge at one competition who was constantly playing with his own cube and practicing timed solves on his phone while judging, and responded with "why? It's not like anyone is going to cheat anyway" when told to stop. Also I find parents far more likely to make decisions they shouldn't, such as grant extras without involving the delegate or being lenient with penalties, etc.
 
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Thread starter #14
I don't seem to recall that you volunteered to judge even once, so it's not like you're actively helping to solve the problem.
I did do mostly running, but I judged a few times.
there is not a whole lot more we can do besides relying on competitors like yourself to step up and help at a competition.
What if we did what FCM was saying,
Judging seminar before the comp.
and hold it right before 2x2/3x3?

Ok here is an Idea.
I disagree. I've had a 10 year old judge who took judging very seriously and knew the exact procedure and could even recite all 8 reasons for a +2.
. I only took time to say all the bad judges we have, not the good ones. What about you can start judging once you have been to three comps? It won't fix the problem, but will eliminate everyone who comes down to do one round of 3x3, get pizza, leaves and will never come back. Sure you might say," Their could be a good judge that is a first timer." and that is true, but chances are all they know about comps is SD cards running out. And if they and to be helpful to the community, then they will do three comps. It only took me being very picky, 5 months and I think anyone who we want judging should not have any less cubing experience then that.
Judging quizzes have been proposed before, but passing any test never implies that a person has practical knowledge regarding that test.
As Kit was saying, the competitors could pass a test and not know jack.
 
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#15
What about you can start judging once you have been to three comps? It won't fix the problem, but will eliminate everyone who comes down to do one round of 3x3, get pizza, leaves and will never come back. Sure you might say," Their could be a good judge that is a first timer." and that is true, but chances are all they know about comps is SD cards running out. And if they and to be helpful to the community, then they will do three comps. It only took me being very picky, 5 months and I think anyone who we want judging should not have any less cubing experience then that.
Usually non Cubers can make for great judges: interested parents, friends... they are qualified in many ways and can easily assess if someone who knows more about cubing needs to help them evaluate a situation. One of our newest staff in GA just went to his first comp, he was there to pretty much only help out. Same with some of the organizers in certain areas. As well competitions that have more than 50% newcomers must rely on newcomers to help judge.

Furthermore if we don't allow people to judge within their first 3 comps then they will not learn how to judge and simply not ever want to do it. Once you do judge you are accustomed to it and will want to help out.
 
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Thread starter #19
if we don't allow people to judge within their first 3 comps then they will not learn how to judge and simply not ever want to do it. Once you do judge you are accustomed to it and will want to help out.
I guess you have a point that if most people don't judge in their first three comps, they never will, but the first time I judged was at Discovery place, my 6th comp. Also if their first three comps had seminars about judging, they could get hyped up and ready.
 

ducttapecuber

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#20
Hi organizer of Crossroads and Discovery Place here-
Judges have always been a problem. At Crossroads we had a lot of younger kids (siblings) who were bored and wanted to help out. Yes, that little girl fell asleep. I personally had to go wake her up.
At Discovery Place we had Museum staff as judges. I trained all of them before the event. They could ask questions and whatnot. They were also very informed that if they had any problem, to call for help from my trusted group of comp staff. This is what I plan on doing again at Discovery Place this summer.
I would like to continue to implement a "seminar" at the beginning.
Another idea is to have newer judges shadow an experienced judge for a couple attempts. See how it's done and be walked through it first hand. I have found great success in this.
 
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