Teaching young kids BLD cubing

[AvGalen]

I strongly disagree.

For my experience, 3OP was far away clearer than pochmann method when I began.

More objectivly, I think it depend from who's learning.

3OP don't need that many algs, just 3 and they probably know some of them.

But I have to agree with stefan : if they are not ready to learn T perm, they are not ready for blindfold.

3OP needs at least 5 algs (yes, you could do 2 U-Perms for Parity fix but lets ignore that):
* A-Perm for corner permutation
* U-Perm for edge permutation
* corner-twister (like sexy-move*2) for corner orientation
* 2-flip for edge orientation
* Parity fix (H-Perm, T-Perm, J-Perm, whatever)

Explaining the concept of orienting pieces first is counter-intuitive. Kids would have to memo both orientations, perform it and after that would see.....a scrambled cube with almost no solved pieces. 3OP is only good because it makes solving 2 pieces at a time easy and because it teaches people a lot about how the cube actually works. Kids like to see results as soon as possible so I would recommend against 3OP.

(I personally use 3OP because it was the method that required the least amount of new algs and was very commonly used "back then")

 

[deadalnix]

If theay have already learned a standard 4 look last layer, they perfectly get the concept of orienting/permuting.

Anyway, 3OP need more alg, but 5 isn't a big amount and remain perfectly reasonable.

For the a perm and U perm, you can also use RUR'D2RU'R'D2 and M'U2MU2 which are both really easy.

Not as easy as pochmann, but it remains perfectly usable for beginers.

An intuitive mind will prefer pochmann method, but a mathematical mind will prefer 3OP at first. (see yellow and blue on Ned Hermann's model for more informations about this if you are interested).

EDIT : for people dealing with M2. This is definitively a great method. But this is not a beginer method due to special tricky cases. Why telling them to use BH ? It intuitive also (I find it so great on corners !).

 

[beingforitself]

If they have already learned a standard 4 look last layer, they perfectly get the concept of orienting/permuting.

Anyway, 3OP need more alg, but 5 isn't a big amount and remain perfectly reasonable.

For the a perm and U perm, you can also use RUR'D2RU'R'D2 and M'U2MU2 which are both really easy.

Not as easy as pochmann, but it remains perfectly usable for beginners.

The title of this thread is "teaching young kids BLD cubing." As Chris mentions, this means grades K-6. "Perfectly usable" for someone 15 years old is far from perfectly usable for someone 7 years old.

 

[cmhardw]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the posts. I have been following this thread very closely and have decided that definitely the best choice is classic Pochmann. The two kids I have been teaching I will call Howard, and Mary. Those aren't their real names, I don't think their parents would like me talking about them online, but I want to refer to them easier than "the one boy" or "the one girl." Howard has finished his camp, but he can orient edges and corners blindfolded (I made it through step 6 of my first proposed method with him). We only did simple cases blindfolded, but he can do full EO and CO sighted. He also has a set color orientation, and I told him to practice.

Howard's older brother, let's call him Nick, is a cuber and is in High School. He comes to our center for regular math tutoring. What I told Howard is that I would teach Nick the Pochmann method, and then Nick would teach Howard the rest of what he doesn't know. Knowing how to orient pieces will help both Howard and Mary for handling permuted but disoriented pieces, so what I taught him is still useful.

Ok, so the other student, Mary, is coming for 3 or 4 more weeks of camp and she is older than Howard. I will start in directly on Monday with teaching her the T perm. I will make a big deal out of it being the "secret" to BLD or something silly like that to keep her interest. Then I will show her the alg by rote. If necessary I will possibly show her the first OLL, then the second OLL, then the combination of the two (with the cancellations).

After that we will solve pieces by type. If we are working on corners I will solve all edges on the cube first to make this easy to visualize. If we are working on edges I will solve all corners to make this easy to visualize. Mary can already orient edge pieces blindfolded (very simply EO cases), and can orient simple and complex CO cases sighted. She still needs to work on CO blindfolded, but I can just use that as "warm-ups" each day.

Thanks for the help everybody, I think Pochmann method will be much easier to teach younger kids. I will still use the first 6 steps of my first version proposed method for all potential BLD cubers, since this let's me gauge if they're ready. If a kid can't do simple EO cases blindfolded, then they are not ready for Pochmann method.

So my new proposed method of teaching young kids BLD cubing is:

1) Practice EO, sighted
2) Practice CO, sighted.
3) Practice combined EO and CO, sighted.
4) Practice simple EO cases, blindfolded. Teach them how to memorize with visual methods.
5) Practice simple CO cases, blindfolded. Teach them how to memorize with visual methods.
6) Practice simple combined EO and CO cases, blindfolded.
7) Teach them the T perm, in stages of 2 OLL's if necessary.
8) Pochmann corners sighted, teaching how to do them.
9) Pochmann edges sighted, teaching how to do them.
10) Simple corner cases blindfolded (2-3 cycles)
11) Simple edge cases blindfolded (2-3 cycles)
12) Very simple combination of both corners and edges (1-2 cycles per piece type).
13) Solve an entire cube, sighted, with the Pochmann method.
14) Spend a lecture time, or full class time, on the "linked lists" memory method. This one is the very easy, very visual, method to memorize and I think a very good option for kids. We need to make a prepared list of nouns from A-X. This will take one full class time, maybe 1.5 classes.
15) Start giving them progressively harder and harder solves, blindfolded. To do this I start with a scrambled cube and solve it a bit more than halfway myself with Pochmann method, and let them finish the solve. Each time I solve progressively one fewer corner and one fewer edge. Eventually they get a scrambled cube.

-------------------------

What does everybody think of this proposed method? I will go ahead and start with these steps on Monday, but I am of course open to feedback. Also, I will have feedback of my own as I teach it as to what works bests with the kids.

Chris

 

[cmhardw]

Double post ftw!

Mary knows the T perm! Tomorrow we start with cycling corners (step 8)!

Chris

 

[AvGalen]

...Mary knows the T perm!

Just 20 more PLL's to go

I like how you can actually be so excited about someone else knowing 1 PLL. In almost every other thread this would have resulted in a "so what, why bother us with that information". But in this thread it is really worth mentioning

Good luck with the next steps

 

[beingforitself]

Double post ftw!

Mary knows the T perm! Tomorrow we start with cycling corners (step 8)!

Chris

Sounds awesome. How is teaching Pochmann corners going?

You might want to consider introducing one or both of the J-perms (as well as the Y-perm) in order to avoid certain 3-move setup cases which could turn out to be overly confusing. Also, I feel like Pochmann edges might be easier to do first than the corners, due to the fact that there are only two rather than three data points to think about.

 

[cmhardw]

Sounds awesome. How is teaching Pochmann corners going?

You might want to consider introducing one or both of the J-perms (as well as the Y-perm) in order to avoid certain 3-move setup cases which could turn out to be overly confusing. Also, I feel like Pochmann edges might be easier to do first than the corners, due to the fact that there are only two rather than three data points to think about.

Hi beingforitself,

Actually Mary did very well today for learning to cycle using Pochmann corners. Right now I am setting up what would essentially be the very last cycle, and having her do the setup move followed by the T perm, followed by undoing the setup. The result of her doing this is a solved cube, as I want to reward what she does each time to help boost her confidence. I did a number of 1 and 2 setup move cases, as well as one 3 move setup case. Tomorrow we will probably do some more 3 move setup cases, as well as having her do 2 corner cycles for the first time (simple cases).

I don't think I'll be showing her any other permutations for a while. Learning the T perm took 1.5 classes, and she still only knows it as 2 OLLs done one after the other. I did show her the cancellation, but she said it was more confusing to try to remember the cancellation than to just do the 2 OLLs. I told her that's fine, just do it as 2 OLLs.

All in all she is learning very quickly! I'm very excited, and very confident, that by the end of these 3 weeks she'll be a full blown blindsolver!

Chris

 

[Stefan]

Chris, are you teaching her solving corners with the T perm? I really recommend using Y perm instead, even if it's the full Y perm starting with F and ending with F'. Setup moves get so much easier! And as she knows the two OLLs already, "learning" the Y should now be a breeze.

With the two-OLLs Y, if I'm not mistaken...

1 case takes 0 setup moves
6 cases take 1 setup move
12 cases take 2 setup moves
2 cases take 3 setup moves
---------------------------
average 1.71 setup moves

Can you do the same analysis for using T perm?

Besides being shorter, setup moves for using Y also only need R/F/D turns. And you're never in danger of destroying the buffer area (i.e. moving the swapping edges). When using T and solving from URB, how do you solve ULB?

 

[ckcommando]

yea.. i am 13 and i can solve every rubiks cube ever made (2-7) and the megaminx, square-1--- and even the 3x3 in the beginner, fredrich, petrus, and 2-gen methods....

my iq says i am genius laugh-out-loud

 

[cmhardw]

Chris, are you teaching her solving corners with the T perm? I really recommend using Y perm instead, even if it's the full Y perm starting with F and ending with F'. Setup moves get so much easier! And as she knows the two OLLs already, "learning" the Y should now be a breeze.

With the two-OLLs Y, if I'm not mistaken...

1 case takes 0 setup moves
6 cases take 1 setup move
12 cases take 2 setup moves
2 cases take 3 setup moves
---------------------------
average 1.71 setup moves

Can you do the same analysis for using T perm?

Besides being shorter, setup moves for using Y also only need R/F/D turns. And you're never in danger of destroying the buffer area (i.e. moving the swapping edges). When using T and solving from URB, how do you solve ULB?

Hey Stefan,

Yes I can certainly see how using the Y perm is easier than the T perm for corners. Also, since she knows both OLLs already, it would be easy to just tell her to apply them in the opposite order.

I do have a question though, how would I teach her to solve cases where she needs to do an odd number of 2-swaps? I've never done Pochmann using different PLLs for corners and edges. If I had her solve corners first, and finish by applying the last Y perm (swapping UB and UL from the initial scramble), then she would have to account for the fact that they are swapped either during memorization, or during solving.

I feel this step would be a somewhat high level of abstraction to teach. If it's the only way then it's the only way and I'll teach her to do it. I don't want her to leave the last two edges and the last two corners to setup into a Y or T perm since that would be even more difficult. Is there an easier way to teach her to handle odd permutation cases in the corners and edges?

--edit--
Another idea is to have her use the T perm to first swap UB and UL back to their original locations. I would have her do M' S D' S' (T Perm) S D S' M and just teach this as an algorithm. I suppose that might be the easiest way to teach a younger kid how to handle this case? Or is there an easier way?
--edit--

Can someone provide an example solve for this scramble using Y perm for corners and T perm for edges? I made sure that the corner and edge orbits will have odd parity. You don't need to type out the Y perm, just write (Y Perm) or (T Perm) and I'm sure I can figure it out

Scramble:
R2 F2 U' D B D' R' F U' L' F2 R2 L2 D2 U B2 L' U L' F L2 B2 L2 B F'

---------------------------------------------
Also, here is a T perm setup analysis. I am disallowing cases where you use slice turn setups to create a T perm on another face different from the U face. I think that is a bit too much for me to teach Mary right now.

I am counting in STM in order to make setting up to UBL easier. This is how I would teach the setups, so this is how I will count them here.

0 setup moves: 1 case
1 setup move: 3 cases
2 setup moves: 6 cases
3 setup moves: 8 cases
4 setup moves: 3 cases

average setup turns: 2.43 turns

--------------------

Thanks for the help everyone,
Chris

 

[Stefan]

Interesting point about using T for both edges and corners so that fixing parity is just another T. Again, I'm just not used to the thought that someone intends to blindsolve and is incapable of learning the R perm. Kids...

In that spirit of doing more in order to learn less, you could fix parity by shooting to edge positions UL, UB, and again UL.

Scramble:
R2 F2 U' D B D' R' F U' L' F2 R2 L2 D2 U B2 L' U L' F L2 B2 L2 B F'

Corners:
F2 (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') F2
(F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F')
F (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') F'
R2 (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') R2
D2 R (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') R' D2
R' F R (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') R' F' R
F R' F' (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') F R F'

Parity:
(R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F')
R2 U' R2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') R2 U R2
(R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F')

Edges:
R2 U' R2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') R2 U R2
D L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D'
d' L (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L' d
L d L' (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L d' L'
D' L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D
(R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F')
d L (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L' d'
d' L' (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L d
L (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L'
D2 L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D2
l D' L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D l'

I am counting in STM in order to make setting up to UBL easier.

Cheater

3 setup moves: 8 cases
4 setup moves: 3 cases

11 cases needing 3 or more moves, some probably using inner slice moves, some probably really ugly... yeah, that was the reason I added Y perm back then when going from old pochmann version 1 to version 2...

 

[Chuck]

Sorry for the bump.

I am in the process of teaching my fiancee BLD solving. So I really want to thank everyone for your helpful posts in this thread, especially Chris, Stefan, and Arnaud. I've decided that I will go with Classic Pochmann with simplified T and Y perm, and R perm for parity.

But Mike's post is my most favorite:

First, do the algorithm with your arms around them, so they have the same perspective on the cube that you have.

Because it's my fiancee that we're talking about.

 

[Mike Hughey]

Sorry for the bump.

I am in the process of teaching my fiancee BLD solving. So I really want to thank everyone for your helpful posts in this thread, especially Chris, Stefan, and Arnaud. I've decided that I will go with Classic Pochmann with simplified T and Y perm, and R perm for parity.

But Mike's post is my most favorite:

First, do the algorithm with your arms around them, so they have the same perspective on the cube that you have.

Because it's my fiancee that we're talking about.

Yes, I can see where that would be particularly nice.

 

[Chuck]

I've just finished uploading my video tutorial based on this thread. As usual, it's in Indonesian So I just want everyone to know that I'm very enthusiast with this thread. Thank you.

 

[cubeman34]

I've just finished uploading my video tutorial based on this thread. As usual, it's in Indonesian So I just want everyone to know that I'm very enthusiast with this thread. Thank you.

*Must learn Indonesian*

 

[Hyprul 9-ty2]

*Must learn Indonesian too*
Oh wait.. Malay is pretty close

 

[Mike Hughey]

Wow, Chuck! Not knowing Indonesian hurts a little, but it was really quite easy to follow, and I'm impressed how you managed to teach how to solve BLD with this method in just a 10 minute video! I'm inspired to start teaching my daughters tonight - I really think I could teach them this method!

 

[d4m4s74]

have you decided on a memorisation method yet?

 

[Mike Hughey]

have you decided on a memorisation method yet?

I'll probably teach them letters, and introduce images if I think they need it (one image per letter). But I'll deal with that when we get that far.

Edit: It just occurred to me that since my daughters already know the A perm from their beginner's sighted method, I could have them do corners first (easier for memorization, in my opinion - memorize corners last, solve first), then in parity case do one more Y perm, then do edges including the last edge, and then there are 3 corners left that are an A perm. So all I have to teach them is T perm and Y perm and I'm good. And Rebecca already knows T perm, so only one algorithm to go.

I'm quite sure the setup moves are going to be the toughest thing to teach.