Should we remove at least one of the 3 big BLD events? (4x4, 5x5, multi BLD)

[Micael]

As an organiser and delegate, one of my biggest wishes, if not the biggest, is that 5bld and Multibld were not official events.

This is the only good argument to remove bigBLD in my opinion: it is difficult to hold. All other arguments are debatable imo.

 

[BillyRain]

This is the only good argument to remove bigBLD in my opinion: it is difficult to hold. All other arguments are debatable imo.

It is not difficult to hold. It just depends how lazy you are and how much work you want to put into your event.

Also there is a lot of personal biased here based on whether you do or do not compete in the event yourself.

 

[Bindedsa]

This is the only good argument to remove bigBLD in my opinion: it is difficult to hold. All other arguments are debatable imo.

This seems like the worst argument to me. If the organizer does not want to hold the even he/she does no have to, but you want to just completely remove the option, meaning the only people affected are those who would hold/compete in 5bld are not able to. Seems like saying, I don't really like ketchup on my burgers so we should not allow ketchup on any burgers.

 

[kinch2002]

It is not difficult to hold. It just depends how lazy you are and how much work you want to put into your event.

Thanks for letting me know that I should be less lazy.

This seems like the worst argument to me. If the organizer does not want to hold the even he/she does no have to, but you want to just completely remove the option, meaning the only people affected are those who would hold/compete in 5bld are not able to. Seems like saying, I don't really like ketchup on my burgers so we should not allow ketchup on any burgers.

Yes, 200 people have said this argument of not having to hold the event. I still disagree with it. Either I hold it and it's anywhere from annoying to a nightmare, or I don't hold it and people complain at me.

Also, we should have 500 official events because we don't have to hold them all if we don't want to. There's no harm in having an event if somebody wants to do it.

 

[BillyRain]

Thanks for letting me know that I should be less lazy.

No problem.

I'm not going to be all prissy about it because it's a fact. Some organisers won't hold BBLD/MBLD because they simply CBFA.

Either I hold it and it's anywhere from annoying to a nightmare

I read that as it being an annoyance/nightmare to yourself. Although I'm sure you will correct me.

Also, we should have 500 official events because we don't have to hold them all if we don't want to. There's no harm in having an event if somebody wants to do it.

*Sarcasm detection result pending...*

 

[Bindedsa]

Yes, 200 people have said this argument of not having to hold the event. I still disagree with it. Either I hold it and it's anywhere from annoying to a nightmare, or I don't hold it and people complain at me.

Also, we should have 500 official events because we don't have to hold them all if we don't want to. There's no harm in having an event if somebody wants to do it.

So you would rather no one have the option to compete/hold 5BLD/MBLD event officially and get no complaints? That seems unfair. Perhaps we should not just add all the events we can think of, but we definitely should not be removing events just because come organizers don't want competitors to be disappointed when an event is not held and removing the options of others to hold it at all.

 

[cmhardw]

Of course I understand, but I am not trying to get all events removed and completely undo your work. I hope you noticed that as well. You do make it sound like the whole BH system would be useless if one of the events would go, which is obviously not true. Actually I think of all 3 big BLD events 5 BLD makes the most sense to NOT remove, because it is a good mix of new pieces (and thus the most new problems you need to solve) and bulk info to memorize. The biggest candidate for me would be multi, because multi has the least to do with speedcubing and only requires the extra skill of memorizing bulk info. Why did you focus on 5 BLD in your post and don't mention multi one time btw? According to your WCA profile you only competed once in multi since the change from old to new.

Understood, I was going off the recent batch of posts where people said that, although they may not want an event removed, that 5x5x5BLD would make sense to be the one to go first. I did not remember that you were campaigning more for multiBLD as the one that makes sense to be the first to go (if we get rid of an event).

I feel similarly, although I don't focus on multi as much as the experts, it still sucks for those who really consider multiBLD to be their main event. I can say that the arguments for removing an event seem practical enough, especially from an organizer's perspective, but that doesn't mean that I like the option of removing a current event.

As to the poll: a poll is only a poll. Maybe a poll wasn't even a good idea because it's the perfect tool to misinterpret data because:
1. the poll mostly will attract people who have a heart for the event, while people who don't care about either the event OR the WCA's policy would probably just ignore it
2. is only a selection of the people on THIS forum (and not even all of them)
3. popularity is only one of the aspects involved in discussions like this (if the WCA would always do what the majority wants, we'd already have the option of doing relays and 2x2 BLD)

It is good to get an idea of how the community feels, but I agree that the poll in this thread probably does attract more people who really focus on BLD events than it would a general sample of the cubing community. The poll is also limited by being on a forum where the primary language is English.

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TL;DR

I can see that there are benefits to the community as a whole (minus those who like the event removed) if one of the BLD events is removed, and in particular it would make organizers' job a little easier to do as well. However, I still don't like it

My reasoning mainly comes from the fact that removing an event will probably affect organizers in a slightly positive way, it may affect the majority of cubers in a slightly positive way, and it would definitely affect those who like the event in a very negative way. In my opinion the losses outweigh the gains. Of course my opinion is swayed based on the fact that I like these events, so I admit that I am biased here.

Chris

 

[TMOY]

1. the poll mostly will attract people who have a heart for the event, while people who don't care about either the event OR the WCA's policy would probably just ignore it

Yes, of course, and that's perfectly normal. I would really hate it if it got decided by a bunch of 12-year olds who don't even do 3BLD that I should give up bigBLD/multi. At least people who compete or have competed in the events know what they're talking about.

 

[BillyRain]

Yes, of course, and that's perfectly normal. I would really hate it if it got decided by a bunch of 12-year olds who don't even do 3BLD that I should give up bigBLD/multi. At least people who compete or have competed in the events know what they're talking about.

My train of thought ( \m/ ) exactly.

Surely if it's attracting only the people who compete/care, then it's their opinions that matter the most.

Why do we want to ask the entire speedcubing community in order to get a "general consensus" when more than half of them don't even compete/care about the event!!

Pollution.

 

[kinch2002]

I think I'm done here for now. I've said what I needed to. Thank you to those of you who can discuss in a sensible manner, which I have found to be a larger proportion than normal in these threads. As I said in my original response to this thread, I don't care that much if we keep everything. I can deal with that. Just wanted to put forward my opinion, but I'm quite willing to respect other people's point of view.

All I ask is please don't complain to me if we don't hold them at UK comps that I delegate/organise, or if the cutoffs/any other constraints seem harsh. OK cool

 

[ollicubes]

I dont see any reasons to remove any of them. Every person can not like everything. For example I dont care less about fewest moves or rubik's clock. Although I don't like them I'm not saying that they should be removed from the official events because I know that there are lot's of people who likes thouse events.

In fact all BLD events are giving you a diffrent kind of challenge.
Fir example when I know well how to do 4BLD there was so much things to learn until I said 'Now I know 5bld well"

So yes, I don't want that any of these events get removed. Thanks

 

[Goosly]

I voted "No, we should keep all events (please explain)" so I have to explain why

Now yes, you could also argue 7x7 doesn't add anything either. On this I would partly agree. Yes 7x7 and 6x6 and 5x5 are very much the same, to be honest I wouldn't be bothered at all if 7x7 was removed as well. The difference though, is that 7x7 is just a variant of a 3x3 and not a variant of a variant (because that would be 7x7 FMC or OH for example).

I won't argue a 7x7 doesn't add anything. It does. It adds layers. 4BLD and 5BLD add layers too. MBLD adds cubes. They're all interesting.

Currently I don't feel the need to remove any event.

 

[Ollie]

Would a 4BLD Mo3 'test' a competitor's concentration and big cube ability as well as a lone 5BLD single?

Replacing 5BLD with a 4BLD mean official record puts less pressure on time schedules, addresses the problem of redundancy and addresses the accuracy problem in official 5BLD attempts by encouraging consistency whilst using half the energy of doing 3 official 5BLD solves.

 

[A Leman]

Most of my points have been made above so it was sensible for me to wait before replying in that respect. I can’t help but wonder WHY someone who has not put any serious practice into the BLD events would make a thread like this. I am also concerned that it seems like the BLD events were being singled out and victimized because they require more skills than fast fingers. Is the major downside that they have a large effect on some people’s sum of ranks?

The argument that we should just leave cubing and go to do Memory Sports is probably the most inconsiderate and most invalid point that I have found on this thread. If you had an interest in memory sports, then you would know that there is actually nowhere to go. Memory sports does not have the organizational experience or prevalence that the WCA does. In fact, as far as I know, there is not a single official delegate in North America! We have one competition that is unofficial with events that are not comparable to the very small international community. There have even been talks about putting together small competitions in people’s apartments (I wonder if it was similar for cubing in the early days). Furthermore, BLD and memory sport have very different events and they only benefit each other in the way that cross-training can help an athlete.

I have also felt that 4BLD, 5BLD, and Multi are actually quite different in terms of how I think of the event. I think there is a significant difference between 4BLD and 5BLD in particular. I like 5BLD more because odd cubes normally have much better hardware, midges are not the same as edges since most of the MU cycles are not supercube safe and T-centers in particular are very different and easily my favorite big cube piece type to solve. In terms of memo, 4BLD is basically a one pass while 5BLD requires review to be accurate.

This is an issue that has bothered me for a while now: Blindfolded solving is an impressive way to solve a Rubik's cube. Overall I do like it and like to do it

Maybe this is also a good opportunity to explain my personal stands here. Personally I don't like any of the bigger BLD events

Which is your real personal stand?

Tim:
About your last comment: I might sound a bit blunt here, but I do know what I am talking about, competed in all events and am very well aware of the techniques used in the events. Still I have yet to see a good reason why 4 AND 5 AND Multi should all be kept. By saying Multi is 3BLD times x I don't mean that it's as easy, but that it doesn't add much to the problem solving you have to do compared to any of the other events. For example: in 5BLD you also have to memorize more information and be accurate, but you at least have to deal with new pieces.

Tim is a NAR holder in the event that you are over-generalizing. Perhaps he also knows what he is talking about. You have competed in MultiBld ~33 times and your best score is a 3. I am fairly certain that that is a score that can be achieved with a complete ignorance of the techniques.

Not sure how you manage to not let it affect the schedule, but when we've done this, it got so annoying at times that I'm only happy with having them scheduled in their own slot now.
Example conversation when people are doing big bld at random times:
"We need more scramblers and judges. Where is Person A?"
"Oh, he's doing 5bld"
"What about person B?"
"He's judging the 5bld"
"What about person C?"
"He's filming the 5bld"

I have noticed that many BLD solvers are older than the average competitor and are looked at as the “adults” in the room that should be helping to smoothly run the competition which is good, but it is not completely fair to Person A to be relied upon to such an extent that it is a problem when he/she competes in the event that he/she drove X miles for and is the reason that he/she is there to begin with. I can understand how these events can cause problems for organizers though and I would support any ideas you have in terms of stricter cutoffs.

 

[vd]

I think all BLD events should stay.
As for multi, one thing that was not mentioned here many times, yet I think it is very important is that multi is not only testing memory of a solver, but also accuracy of solving 3x3 BLD. For example, my last result at comp was 10/13 caused by bad accuracy, while I had no problem to memorize all the informations within the time limit. Furthermore, at top level multi, speedsolving part is important too - if someone is attempting like 20 cubes, it is very big difference if he needs 1:30 to solve one, thus having only 30 minutes for memo, or 0:30 to solve one, having 50 minutes for memo.
Considering big cubes BLD, I do partially agree that the events are kind of similar, but the big difference is, solving 4BLD is still mostly about short term memory and fast execution, while at 5BLD, it is long term memory and accuracy that are important. I do believe that the difference between these 2 events is indeed bigger than difference between 6x6 and 7x7, which was mentioned here many times already.

 

[Dene]

Winner of 6x6 is also winner of 7x7

And also winner of 5x5, and 4x4, and 3x3, and OH, and 2x2, and megaminx...

Fast people will be fast. That's just the way it is. Erik of all people would surely understand.

What I have to say on the speedcubing versus memory sport discussion is that most people I know refer to themselves as a "cuber" first and foremost, not a "speedcuber". It's all about the community, and I know there are people who set their focus on certain subsets of cubing, including BLD. We would be alienating all of them by removing the events that tie them to the cubing community. It's not appealing to some people to due the "speed" based events and they prefer to focus on the memory side of things.

^^ The best thing said in this thread. (A thread otherwise full mostly of crap).

 

[BillyRain]

Not sure how you manage to not let it affect the schedule, but when we've done this, it got so annoying at times that I'm only happy with having them scheduled in their own slot now.
Example conversation when people are doing big bld at random times:
"We need more scramblers and judges. Where is Person A?"
"Oh, he's doing 5bld"
"What about person B?"
"He's judging the 5bld"
"What about person C?"
"He's filming the 5bld"

That's because the majority of persons from D-Z are sitting at the back of the room practicing (because they are fast and therefore seemingly excluded from judging) or making cube towers.

The regulation is that all competitors should be available for judging and scrambling at any time. Not just for the events that they are competing in.

Too many organisers are scared to pick on people they don't know for judging. It's much easier to ask someone that you know and who always judges right...?

 

[Erik]

I can’t help but wonder WHY someone who has not put any serious practice into the BLD events would make a thread like this.

Is this supposed to insult me? Or is this just a provocation? I think my argumentation is quite neutral and unbiased actually.

The argument that we should just leave cubing and go to do Memory Sports is probably the most inconsiderate and most invalid point that I have found on this thread. If you had an interest in memory sports, then you would know that there is actually nowhere to go. Memory sports does not have the organizational experience or prevalence that the WCA does. In fact, as far as I know, there is not a single official delegate in North America! We have one competition that is unofficial with events that are not comparable to the very small international community. There have even been talks about putting together small competitions in people’s apartments (I wonder if it was similar for cubing in the early days). Furthermore, BLD and memory sport have very different events and they only benefit each other in the way that cross-training can help an athlete.

Multi-BLD is for the largest part just a memory sport where no extra skills are required (compared to 3BLD) than the ability to memorize bulk-information. I think we can all agree on this. Seeing our sport is called 'speedcubing' and not 'memory sports' I think especially multi-BLD is the odd man out and doesn't really belong into speedcubing (especially considering we already have 3BLD and 5BLD). Maybe you misinterpreted what I said? What I said was

If you can indeed memorize and solve 20 cubes in an hour, alternatively you could really try to make a career in memory sports!

This was a serious motivational suggestion and a praise to those who are actually that good, because the top-multi BLD cubers really do have memorizing capabilities of memory-sport athletes.

Which is your real personal stand?

As you can conclude from both quotes you posted, I like BLD-cubing in itself but don't like the bigger BLD events. You have to understand that there is a difference in the appreciation of an event and the neutral evaluation of the suitedness of an event.

Tim is a NAR holder in the event that you are over-generalizing. Perhaps he also knows what he is talking about. You have competed in MultiBld ~33 times and your best score is a 3. I am fairly certain that that is a score that can be achieved with a complete ignorance of the techniques.

Please tell me where I said Tim doesn't know what he is talking about? Of course he does, the only thing I wanted to make clear is that I also know what I am talking about, which I think you also understood (I highlighted your own "can"). The result someone has in an event is no garuantee of the knowledge about the event. AvG is terribly slow at 3x3 and most other cubes but knows more than most people.

 

[Kirjava]

That's because the majority of persons from D-Z are sitting at the back of the room practicing (because they are fast and therefore seemingly excluded from judging)

Wish I'd've known this earlier so I could get out of judging.

 

[BillyRain]

Wish I'd've known this earlier so I could get out of judging.

You already do...

WGC2014

"Can you judge please"

"No I'm busy" *Practices and ignores me*