Should we remove at least one of the 3 big BLD events? (4x4, 5x5, multi BLD)

Should we remove at least one big BLD event?


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I think multi should leave, as Kim said as well: it is just 3x3 but just more of them. In my opinion it also takes allot of time, I personally ( and I am 100%sure I am not the only one) hate to leave a venue at 20:00 and then drive 3 hours to home and get there really late ( of course you could make the argument that in that case I shouldn't even attend the comp but still).
 
There's a lot of preoccupation with the term "speedcubing" which I think is misplaced. Let me remind everyone that "WCA" is short for "World Cube Association", and not "World speedCubing Association". In fact, the mission statement doesn't contain the word "speed" at all. The WCA regulates competition having to do with Rubik's puzzles and twisty puzzles, with no requirement that any of it has to be called "speedcubing". That term is just a shorthand that we use because it describes most of the official events. Big BLD and multi-BLD can be described as memory sports, but none of the official memory sport competitions hold these events, and there's no reason the WCA can't. I think having a diverse array of events is a good thing for the community.

I also think it is good that we officially recognize feats that are very difficult, despite their low popularity (so long as it can be reasonably accommodated in competition format, of course). I think Maskow's (and other big MBLDers') attempts are some of the most amazing accomplishments that come out of the cubing community. The feet thread is very preoccupied with how the public is impressed with footsolving. Well, the big BLD events are much more impressive to the general public. These are the events that we should be using to get more exposure.
 
Now I know we all trust each other, but it is sometimes possible that competitor A does a WR on the first solve, which is filmed and put up on the internet and person B can still do the same scramble the next day, or at the end of the day. Do we really trust each other for that long? This does not seem very desirable...

2g3) Competitors in the Competitors Area must not communicate with each other about the scrambled states of the puzzles of the round in progress. Penalty: disqualification of the competitor from the event, at the discretion of the WCA Delegate.

OK, it's technically not the competitors area, but it falls IMHO into the same category. If someone puts up a video of himself on Internet before the end of the event, even if the event lasts two days, that can be viewed as communication with other competitors (since anybody can go on the net and watch the vid at any time) and should be punished accordingly (again, at the discretion of the delegate).
 
General points:
- nearly all the arguments here can be applied to 6x6x6, 7x7x7 and to some extent 5x5x5 too.
- I agree with your points on Multi :p

I agree. That is one reason why I think 6x6 and 7x7 should have never become events in the first place.

5x5BLD especially seems to be a waste. There are few competitors who compete in it and it is extremely time consuming and requires a lot of judging time.

This has gotten me curious about something. How often do the following occur:

- Winner of 6x6 is also winner of 7x7
- Winner of 4BLD is also winner of 5BLD.
 
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I think that all of the BLD events should remain. Although I don't do BLD, I don't think that all big BLD events are the same. Imo, that's like saying that 4x4-7x7 are the same. I know that big BLD is a pain for organizers, but organizers can choose to not hold it.
 
Again, why remove it at all..

Just keep it and if organisers wanna hold it then they can.. if they personally don't like it then they don't have to hold it..

Just saves the people who have devoted so many hours in practicing these events from being completely screwed over just cus the other half of cubers don't like the event. Same goes for feet.
 
I agree with this. Sure, I'm biased because I've never been too interested in doing heavy BLD stuff - I like solving things fast, so memo bores the heck out of me. And not being a BLDer also penalizes me hard in the sum-of-ranks stats. But I think when I've suggested before that maybe we should remove 5BLD, I had some of the same complaints as people here have - 4BLD and 5BLD are pretty similar,the top ranks tend to be more or less held by the best people, and the difficulty of 5BLD (I've seen several substantial competitions with no successes). It isn't unreasonable to say it'd be better as an impressive unofficial event than as one of the big official ones. And let's not forget that not being an official event doesn't mean nobody will try it. I fully expect 5BLD to remain an unofficial milestone of memo capacity and concentration, with people doing it to prove their skills, just like how people now do 6BLD or 7BLD.

Multi's definitely more of the same (compared to 3BLD), but I do think there's an interesting facet in that event that no other event has. You decide ahead of time what you're going to try for, and then how close you get determines your result. In terms of excitedly wondering who's gonna win, the results can be a lot more unexpected than speedsolving, where it's pretty safe to assume everyone gets roughly their average. Even if some hotshot tries 35 cubes, they could have a bad day and run out of time or get 15 wrong, and someone with much less bravery could take the slow-and-steady route and come out ahead. This kind of exciting finish really can only exist in competition. So if we are to remove one of the four BLD events, I think it's better to get rid of 5BLD than Multi.
 
Multi-BLD seems like the best candidate. There isn't any other multi event, and all that it adds is testing how much someone can remember. At least 4/5BLD require different solving methods.
 
As a delegate and a participant who does almost every event at comps,
First of all, the 4BLD vs 5BLD being same logic can certainly be applied on 6x6 vs 7x7 too. I think the problem is less about speedcubing vs memory sports, more about organisation(might be the delegate bias, I am not sure). The events definitely do take a decent amount of time(specially when you decide to hold all). Memory sports is only half the picture. Execution is a crucial role too. Even the most professional memory sportsmen out there will take a good amount of time getting used to numerous fingertricks and getting world class on the events.
4BLD should definitely stay, it doesn't take too much time. Cutoffs can be kept to help managing too.
MBLD is surely much more of a memory sport thing than just solving the cube fast. But it is a very impressive thing to present cubing to non-cubers and media(sometimes the superhuman factor)
5BLD is mostly a redundant form of 4BLD with very less new stuff. 5BLD rankings are mostly same as 4BLD, multi BLD rankings are quite different.
If we are to remove one event, I would vote for 5BLD.
Otherwise, we can just continue to hold them as and when we have time. With increasing amount of competitiors, maybe it gets more important to have blind-special competitions once in a while where the focus is on blind events mainly.
TL DR: There is not a very strict need to remove anything, but out of the given options, 5BLD sounds most reasonable to remove.
 
I feel neither of the 3 should be scrapped and if I were forced to pick one, it would be 5BLD. As mentioned previously by users, multi is way different from 3BLD. Ofcourse, if one were to present the argument that people world class in the 3BLD rankings are also good at multi, it's only because someone who's world class at 3BLD would most likely invest the practise and time required to achieve the memo techniques and speed required for multi. Probably reducing the time from 10 mins per cube to 5 or 6 maybe would be good. That would atleast filter out some competitors who take 20mins for a 2 or 3 cube multi. 4BLD isn't very time consuming at all imo. A strict 10min per attempt limit could be implemented at bigger comps with more participants. In the last comp I went for 4BLD(local), there were just 3 participants and it doesn't really require that much manpower and time that people think it does. In fact it takes less time than a round of 3x3 in comps I've been to as all the 4BLD solvers solve at the same time and finish ALL 3 attempts one after the other. I have not experienced a comp with 5BLD however and I do agree that for the new pieces and challenge introduced, the time trade-off may not be worth it. But I am still not for the removal of any of the 3 as blind solving imo is not just a branch off of 3x3. If that were the case, then you'd see the best in the world at 3x3 top the BLD charts as well, which is clearly not the case.
Alternatively as Akash said above, special blind comps held regularly could probably encourage the scrapping of the events from comps with a lot of competitors and time issues.
 
For those of us who like BLD, we would say that we only have 3 events if we want variety beyond regular 3x3x3BLD.

Let me try to phrase it the other way around:
"We have 13 speedsolving events (see the above spoiler). Do we really need 13 events of essentially the same format? Surely one of them can go?"

You are an all-rounder, and are really famous for that. You have 13 different speedsolve events to pick from (plus BLD ones that you like, if any, and FMC). I am a BLD solver, I have 4 events that I really like from which to choose (plus FMC and 3x3 speedsolve). Removal of a speedcubing event is removing about 7% of the events you really enjoy competing in (1/13). Removing a BLD event is removing 25% of the events I really like to compete in (1/4). Obviously I will interpret your "let's remove a BLD" event differently than you will.

I don't speak for the community as a whole, but when you ask me specifically that quesiton, then this is how I respond.

You know I really admire you for your BLD skills and your contribution to the community for this, so I hope you don't take it as a personal attack of any kind :)
The fact that you specialize in the niece-event BLD is your own preference. There were people who specialized in magics as well and there are some that specialize in megaminx or FMC for example. I don't think the WCA should take into account every single cuber with its own preference, but think about the whole picture. It's logical you are against this, but I think it's a fair thing to do. I will come back to this later at the end of my post.

Your graph doesn't load for me (Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator). I understand the idea that by categorizing the events a certain way that you view 7x7x7 as less necessary than 3x3x3, just as 5x5x5BLD is less necessary than 3x3x3BLD. Still, getting rid of 7x7x7 is removing 1/13 of the speedsolve events, while removing 5x5x5BLD is removing 1/4 of the blindfold events. The relative weight of each change is not the same.

Will try to upload again in the original post soon.


I've not heard of the "all day" rule. In the US and at Worlds you have a maximum of 3 hours to do all of your attempts in either 4x4x4BLD or 5x5x5 BLD. If some competitions allow an "all day" time limit, or even a 2 day time limit, then I would certainly be in favor of at a minimum reducing that to 3 hours.

Then this should definitely be fixed in the regs, no matter what what the outcome of this thread is.

We have this same issue in 3x3x3BLD by the way (a world record solve video could be placed on the internet before others have done that solve). I treat that as a separate issue inherent to BLD events in general, and not just the bigger cubes BLD.

You know the chances of this happening are much much lower, compared to my scenario. Not impossible (sadly), but you'd have to be quite fast in uploading.

Erik, does it not strike you as odd that you and I are again having this same debate about big cube BLD on speedsolving.com? I think the first time was in either 2007 or early 2008. Is there a better venue for us to have our opinions voiced than on speedsolving.com?

Incidentally, this same idea goes for those who start the "remove 3x3x3 with feet" threads, which have popped up nearly every year for a few years now.

Not sure where you want to go with this? We discuss it on speedsolving.com because our sport is speedcubing of which BLD is a small part as well...
The feet discussion has been going on for a while now, though the reasoning in removing feet is kinda poor.

I can see from your personal point of view how you divide all events in BLD and non-BLD or rather speedsolving and non-speedsolving (which also includes FMC). From your post I think your point of view is that Blindsolving is equal in the hierarchy to Speedsolving. On this I strongly disagree. The core of our sport is speedcubing, solving cubes fast. Wasn't it 1982 where we speedsolved the 3x3? Our first truely official website used to be speedcubing.com. Blindfolded solving has always been a nieche-area, just like FMC. My problem is only that we have 4 of those events which make blindfolded solving an overly represented sub-event of speedcubing. It's like doing 3x3 FMC, Sq-1 FMC, 4x4 FMC and FMC-head-to-head as well, which would all make no sense to me whatsoever (though FMC head2head is kinda fun), just like 3x3 OH-BLD or solving with 1 foot.


@ Goodatthis:
1. all events are tough to be good at. The fact that people lose records come with the removal of all events, like Multi-old style and magics.
2. I think you are exaggerating when calling it "some sort of feared mythical creature". I think for something like 5BLD, most people just lack the patience to learn it. Still impressive, but 25 moves FMC is also impressive, just like sub-10 averages on 3x3.
3. Feet nor clock, have the downsides of these 3 big-BLD events. The comparison can't be made this way. Also: 4BLD is not comparable to clock, but more like clock-FMC (a side event of a side event)

2g3) Competitors in the Competitors Area must not communicate with each other about the scrambled states of the puzzles of the round in progress. Penalty: disqualification of the competitor from the event, at the discretion of the WCA Delegate.

OK, it's technically not the competitors area, but it falls IMHO into the same category. If someone puts up a video of himself on Internet before the end of the event, even if the event lasts two days, that can be viewed as communication with other competitors (since anybody can go on the net and watch the vid at any time) and should be punished accordingly (again, at the discretion of the delegate).
It's a bit naive to think this is not a problem. Would you really trust everyone to be honest and not look at the WR video if they had the chance? It's like scrambling your own cube.

@ Bob: would be interesting to see. Sadly I don't have access to the database :/

@ the "why not decide the organizer what to organize" argument: yes lets then also make every possible other event official, the organizer can choose anyway. Rainbow cube, golden cube, head2headFMC, 4x4 OH, 3x3 OH-BLD and of course relays as well... I think the WCA should only offer a limited amount of events which all provide a different challenge and be significantly different from each other. You need to set good boundaries so organizers are likely to organize a large quantity of the events, so everyone will have the chance to compete in all events as well. Currently, the amount of events is just too big to fit in a 2 day competition without setting crazy time-limits, the need of side stages or competition days of 12 hours. And yes, 7x7 is a big time consumer too. Arguably too big, just like 6x6.
 
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It's a bit naive to think this is not a problem. Would you really trust everyone to be honest and not look at the WR video if they had the chance? It's like scrambling your own cube.
Then don't give them the chance. It's the competitor's responsibility to make sure that the other competitors can't see the video before they have done their own attempt.
 
Then don't give them the chance. It's the competitor's responsibility to make sure that the other competitors can't see the video before they have done their own attempt.

I've not heard of the "all day" rule. In the US and at Worlds you have a maximum of 3 hours to do all of your attempts in either 4x4x4BLD or 5x5x5 BLD. If some competitions allow an "all day" time limit, or even a 2 day time limit, then I would certainly be in favor of at a minimum reducing that to 3 hours.


Then this should definitely be fixed in the regs, no matter what what the outcome of this thread is.


..
 
@Erik

Honestly, your arguments about 5BLD being able to be removed do make sense. Reading it from others here too, I can see that a lot of people seem to care very much about the sum-of-ranks stat, and tons of people would benefit from the removal of such a difficult event.

If I think in terms of the bigger picture I can definitely understand the arguments that 5BLD being removed has many benefits to many people.

One thing that I HATE about our sport is that someone like me can specialize in an event for 9 years (I started big BLD seriously in 2005), build up a bit of a legacy related to that event (co-inventing the BH method with Daniel Beyer, set WRs and get podiums at World Championships) and then have that event dropped and any progress made effectively erased. Sure the results will remain on the World Cube Association site, but I would certainly lose my spot on the World Records in most events list, which I have been very proud of for a long time. In 20 years I doubt many people will know that a 5BLD event used to exist, other than a few people in the community who get interested in the history of speedcubing and poke around on the WCA page.

I can concede that there are good reasons to remove 5BLD to benefit the community as a whole. However, I'm completely pissed off that, personally, any legacy I was hoping to create with dedicating so many hours of my life to a puzzle would then be half erased. I hope you can understand that I have a very hard time not taking that personally >:|

As a delegate I will certainly campaign, hard, that 5BLD not be removed, but if the community as a whole decides to remove it then I will have no choice but to go along with that decision.
 
@Erik

Honestly, your arguments about 5BLD being able to be removed do make sense. Reading it from others here too, I can see that a lot of people seem to care very much about the sum-of-ranks stat, and tons of people would benefit from the removal of such a difficult event.

If I think in terms of the bigger picture I can definitely understand the arguments that 5BLD being removed has many benefits to many people.

One thing that I HATE about our sport is that someone like me can specialize in an event for 9 years (I started big BLD seriously in 2005), build up a bit of a legacy related to that event (co-inventing the BH method with Daniel Beyer, set WRs and get podiums at World Championships) and then have that event dropped and any progress made effectively erased. Sure the results will remain on the World Cube Association site, but I would certainly lose my spot on the World Records in most events list, which I have been very proud of for a long time. In 20 years I doubt many people will know that a 5BLD event used to exist, other than a few people in the community who get interested in the history of speedcubing and poke around on the WCA page.

I can concede that there are good reasons to remove 5BLD to benefit the community as a whole. However, I'm completely pissed off that, personally, any legacy I was hoping to create with dedicating so many hours of my life to a puzzle would then be half erased. I hope you can understand that I have a very hard time not taking that personally >:|

As a delegate I will certainly campaign, hard, that 5BLD not be removed, but if the community as a whole decides to remove it then I will have no choice but to go along with that decision.

Of course I understand, but I am not trying to get all events removed and completely undo your work. I hope you noticed that as well. You do make it sound like the whole BH system would be useless if one of the events would go, which is obviously not true. Actually I think of all 3 big BLD events 5 BLD makes the most sense to NOT remove, because it is a good mix of new pieces (and thus the most new problems you need to solve) and bulk info to memorize. The biggest candidate for me would be multi, because multi has the least to do with speedcubing and only requires the extra skill of memorizing bulk info. Why did you focus on 5 BLD in your post and don't mention multi one time btw? According to your WCA profile you only competed once in multi since the change from old to new.

As to the poll: a poll is only a poll. Maybe a poll wasn't even a good idea because it's the perfect tool to misinterpret data because:
1. the poll mostly will attract people who have a heart for the event, while people who don't care about either the event OR the WCA's policy would probably just ignore it
2. is only a selection of the people on THIS forum (and not even all of them)
3. popularity is only one of the aspects involved in discussions like this (if the WCA would always do what the majority wants, we'd already have the option of doing relays and 2x2 BLD)
 
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