Should WCA allow the pushing of Clonk Pins during inspection?

Do you agree?

  • YAY

    Votes: 33 53.2%
  • NAY

    Votes: 29 46.8%

  • Total voters
    62
They shouldn't! Scramble ends in a specific pin state (all up), puzzle gets delivered flat in that specific pin state. Pin state does not get changed until the competitor starts the timer.
Clock has 2 faces, meaning there are two options between which face is laid down flat. The WCA could regulate this by implementing a scrambling and “laying” orientation but clock inserts are highly customizable, meaning it could be extremely easy for competitors to be given 2 different pin states (all pins up, or all pins down) on the same face.

Alsothis would significantly change the pickup of the puzzle, giving a significant advantage the solves set under our current regulations.


My proposal on page 1 allowed for all-pins-wrong misscrambles only when unintentional, which is the same policy the WCA already applies for 6, 7 and megaminx misscrambles. The scrambler (and runner) is not supposed to deliberately misscramble, and should make a reasonable effort to ensure that the puzzle arrives at the competitor in exactly the computer-generated scramble state.


This goes into effect tomorrow, it doesn’t handle many of the current issues with the event but does allow for greater laxness with transportation of puzzles. competitors having the puzzle arrive with differing pin states is not something that should be allowed. It also opens up a significant avenue for cheating by “accidentally” transporting the puzzle in a way that pushes all pins to one side


Fukuoka Kengo James also brought up a very interesting point: you can turn the clocks through the pins too. If you allow one type of pin movement, why not all types of pin movement? Why only the one specific type? (On second thought, there are reasonable counterarguments to this specific point, so I don't really take this as a strong argument for disallowing inspection pin moves; exercise for the reader.)
The WRC made a pull request that would allow pins to be pushed in inspection with that in mind. The draft uses very specific language to guarantee that it is clear that pushing pins would be allowed while twisting them in a way that affects the dials is illegal.

It's not a perfect analogy (so please don't argue with me about how the correspondence isn't exact; I know), but consider again square-1. You can be off by (1,0) (30 degrees) at the end and the puzzle is still considered solved without penalty, but that doesn't mean that you're allowed to do (1,0)s or (0,1)s in inspection.
Actually, the regulation update also fixes some issues regarding sq1 misalignments during inspection since currently they are a bit broken ;p
 
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it could be extremely easy for competitors to be given 2 different pin states (all pins up, or all pins down) on the same face.
This… already happens with current scrambling regulations, though? There's no requirement for scrambling to start on a specific face.

My point is, in my proposal, there is no option to which face is laid down flat once scrambling is done. The scramble ends in one side with the pins down (namely, the face that you start scrambling with, whichever face that happens to be); that face is the one that rests against the table. The other choice would obviously lead to all the pins being toggled, as you note, which is undesirable.

It also opens up a significant avenue for cheating by “accidentally” transporting the puzzle in a way that pushes all pins to one side
If there is this little faith in the scramblers/runners/judges at competitions, maybe the WCA should just not even approve competitions in those areas until trustworthy people show up.

Scramble orientation in the blindsolving events has the same issue—we expect puzzles to be delivered to the competitor in a randomised orientation, but how would you know if the runner secretly biases a few cubes here and there to the competitor's preferred orientation, especially without video evidence? (And if we do allow video evidence for blindsolving, why not clock as well? You can weed out runners who frequently deliver puzzles in the wrong state.)

Any cheating of this form would require collusion between at least two people (the competitor and the scrambler or runner), and any scheme involving more than one person runs the risk of being divulged. (Not necessarily immediately, but perhaps if someone decides they can't live with their guilty conscience and eventually confesses.) I don't see your alleged "significant avenue for cheating" as an actual relevant concern.

competitors having the puzzle arrive with differing pin states is not something that should be allowed.
I agree with this in principle, but I also have multiple conflicting principles.

0. Pin state is part of puzzle state.
(I don't know why this is remotely controversial.)

1. (Assuming 0.) Pin state should be randomised in the scramble.

2. (Assuming 0.) Pin movement should not be allowed during inspection.

These are what we currently have, and in an ideal world that would be perfect, but in our less-than-ideal world, we get all the problems laid out earlier in the thread that make clock a difficult event to run. If I had to choose one of these to drop, I'd rather drop 1 (leading to my earlier proposal of delivering the puzzle flat) than drop 2 / drop 1&2 (OP proposal of allowing inspection pin movement), because having the puzzle always delivered with all pins up leads to a smaller difference from current results compared to allowing competitors to adjust pins during inspection.

As in the new 4g2 (which I was not aware was basically finalised), pin state accidentally changing will no longer warrant an extra scramble. As long as accidental pin state changes aren't biased in a specific way, competitors are ultimately still going to receive fair scrambles—just possibly not the exact same ones as their fellow competitors at the same competition, in the same round, in the same group.
 
This… already happens with current scrambling regulations, though? There's no requirement for scrambling to start on a specific face.

My point is, in my proposal, there is no option to which face is laid down flat once scrambling is done. The scramble ends in one side with the pins down (namely, the face that you start scrambling with, whichever face that happens to be); that face is the one that rests against the table. The other choice would obviously lead to all the pins being toggled, as you note, which is undesirable.
Lets say 1 face takes 5 moves to solve, while the other is 0 (solved). Competitor A receives all pins up on the face that takes 0 moves to solve, while competitor B receives all pins up on the face that takes 5 moves to solve. That is what I mean when I am talking about competitors receiving 2 different pin states. Depending on which face scramblers place facedown when a puzzle is placed in the cover will affect which face will have the pins up. Of course, it would be possible to "regulate" this by stating which face must go facedown but it would be extremely easy to get this wrong (we already see "inverse" pin scrambles quite commonly). The customizability of clock inserts also can make it extremely difficult, since other events follow a much more objective and easily standardized approach (green front, white top or darkest face front, lightest adjacent face on top). Additionally, for a puzzle to be layed all the way down in the cover then we are going to need specialized covers (again) as many cube covers are not wide enough for a clock to lie facedown in them.

Scramble orientation in the blindsolving events has the same issue—we expect puzzles to be delivered to the competitor in a randomised orientation, but how would you know if the runner secretly biases a few cubes here and there to the competitor's preferred orientation, especially without video evidence? (And if we do allow video evidence for blindsolving, why not clock as well? You can weed out runners who frequently deliver puzzles in the wrong state.)
the difference here is that if a someone is caught delivering the puzzle in a specific orientation then its quite easy to see if it is intentional (statistically the competitor should receive their puzzle in WCA orientation. For clock, it may be easier to pull off as an "accident" depending on the cover used

2. (Assuming 0.) Pin movement should not be allowed during inspection.
Just because that is what has traditionally been done, does not mean that it is necessarily the most beneficial thing to do. Ultimately the debate between whether or not changing the state of the puzzle in inspection should be legal or not is up to opinion, but it seems quite clear to me that nearly all of the problems involved in organizing clock stem from pins. We can attempt to treat the symptoms of this by implementing a variety of regulations that add additional complexity to the regulations (and make it harder to staff/hold the event) or we can approach it in a way that resolves many of the issues and will ultimately set the event up for as much success as possible
 
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I don't own a clock but here's my opinion on this, clock pins affect what dials turn when you spin a gear, so let's say there is a scramble where to make the cross you push all the pins to the opposite side before moving the dials, so if a competitor where to push the pins in inspection they would be able to immediately go into moving the dials, so do you think it's in the spirit of puzzle speedsolving to have pins prepositioned for the best possible start to a solve? For me the answer is no, but I know some people will say yes and I respect that opinion.
 
I don't own a clock but here's my opinion on this, clock pins affect what dials turn when you spin a gear, so let's say there is a scramble where to make the cross you push all the pins to the opposite side before moving the dials, so if a competitor where to push the pins in inspection they would be able to immediately go into moving the dials, so do you think it's in the spirit of puzzle speedsolving to have pins prepositioned for the best possible start to a solve? For me the answer is no, but I know some people will say yes and I respect that opinion.
I see what you are saying, but the thing is that even though it allows you to have a good start, and do moves in inspection, this only shaves off maybe 0.25 seconds and that isn't really much.
 
If you own a clock and consistently solve it, then you know how easy it is to accidentally push a pin. Therefore, I don't believe it would be fair to DNF a clock solve because you accidentally pushed it.
Also, by those standards, you'd have to have a specific location for all the pins for the clock to be solved.
On another note, I think the whole idea of having a specific order for which pins are up and which are down in a scramble is ridiculous.

Summary:
You're technically beginning to solve the clock, but it's super, SUPER easy to accidentally push a pin, so it would be ridiculous to DNF a solve because of that. However, I personally believe the whole idea of certain pins going up or down at the end of a scramble should be abolished for a similar reason.

Also, why is clock even a WCA event???????
 
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