Seven Towns vs. Dayan - Color Scheme Copyright Infringment

[Apansy]

they're hard to pop means that they're less of a choking hazard for unsuspecting toddlers.

Hahaha! My original 1980's rubik's brand cube pops all the time. One time, (before I was as serious cuber) I was sitting on the toilet cubing and *POP* pieces fly everywhere and one goes straight between my legs.. PLOP! That piece was sterilised for a day and a bit But yeah, that cube is very robust, I have dropped a heap, it even has it's original stickers that have a few chips and are over 30 years old (they have even been peeled off and put back on again by my Uncle).

 

[SenileGenXer]

I was wondering this too... Seven Towns is based in the UK isn't it? I have no idea how different UK and US law are in this area, but it's probably a bad ideato assume things just because they're true in America.

Copyright is harmonized across many countries through the use of conventions. Representatives meet, hammer out how things should be dealt with. They adopt some of our protections we adopt some of theirs and always always expand the scope of copyright protections. Trade groups for rights holders inject some model language into it. Treaties are signed then then each countries legislature ratifies them. They pass internal law consistant with the treaty. Some things are interpreted differently. Some things legislatures just can't pass. Conventions have been going on for a very long time and the use of them is accelerating. Some practices are slightly different but the whole if it is very very similar and ever expanding. There is no breaking mechanism to cut copyright protection back.

A lot of copyright's chilling effects are outside the court. They don't involve law. They involve getting third parties to enforce your copyrights without a court order or a trial or a judge or a review. You can submit complaints to ebay to get them to ban sales of certain items. The appeal process is not seller friendly nor is it weighted remotely in your favor. We have seen right's holders lodge a complaint with paypal and that disappears from chinese stores without an appeal. Someone said in this thread that Seven Town could send a letter to the WCA and the WCA would have no choice. Think about that for a second.

 

[SenileGenXer]

The inevitable result would be that millions of people would learn that there are other cube makers than Rubik and that there were ways to buy them. Dayan would start selling off-color cubes to US stores. It could end up cutting into Seven Towns' control of US retail market.

As it is, they risk having the story get out every time they mess around with an end user. I can't imagine why they'd do that. The risk / reward is incredibly negative. The last thing they want is for Walmart to be selling a Dayan non-Rubiks cube.

The US retail market is a dying husk filled with really cheap plastic and things that absolutely fall apart in days or weeks. How many stores have gone out of business and what remains? Wallmart is well known for putting downward pressure on suppliers. They get the lowest price by asking suppliers to accept less money. I don't understand why you would want your sales there.

Amazon has an O.K. from it's shareholders to be revenue neutral and undercut every brick and mortar store that still limps along. Amazon sells DaYans and Shengshou. Suggests them to me when I search for Rubik's cube.

 

[Stefan]

You want that colorscheme because you are better on it. You want a Dayan because you are better on it. That doesn't mean Dayan has the right to sell you what you want without making a deal with Seventowns. What you want and what you can get are not always the same.

Um, I was just answering your "Why do all these other companies not just sell cubes with red opposite to green, or black/purple/grey/whatever other colors?".

The work around is so incredibly easy. Just sell cubes without stickers on it or make a deal with Seven Towns and pay them a bit.

1. It's unclear whether stickerless cubes are ok.
2. What makes you think Seven Towns would agree to such a deal?

No, it won't because it can also be assembled in many other ways

Doesn't sound like that matters.

 

[Stefan]

Nope before http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyraminx

But is there any evidence besides Uwe Meffert claiming so?

the usual reason for claiming that copyright law is in the interests of consumers [...] is that it protects consumers from cheap knock-offs.

Really? That's not the usual reason I'm used to seeing. Which is to promote / give incentive to creation.

"The mission of the Copyright Office is to promote creativity"
"the purpose of the copyright system has always been to promote creativity in society"
-- The US Copyright Office

"the contemporary intent of copyright is to promote the creation of new works"
-- Wikipedia on copyright

Similar with patents:
"in exchange for the public disclosure of the invention"
"Primary incentives embodied in the patent system include incentives to invent in the first place; to disclose the invention once made; to invest the sums necessary to experiment, produce and market the invention; and to design around and improve upon earlier patents."
-- Wikipedia on patents

 

[t3ddy]

Wut. Dat logic.

Even buying into that way of thinking, what makes DaYan cubes higher quality? Just because more people use them for speedcubing doesn't mean they're higher quality.
Rubik's brand cubes happen to be incredibly sturdy and the fact that they're hard to pop means that they're less of a choking hazard for unsuspecting toddlers.

I actually managed to break two rubiks brand cubes by just using them a lot. something i haven't managed to do with any dayan/fangshi. those actually get better with time unlike the rubiks brand.

but i admit that rubik's are unpoppable, as i always needed a knife to get out a piece if i wanted to lube it.

Edit: thought about the quality for a bit and this is what i think:
in this particular case the definition of quality is not the same for everyone. if you would drop a rubiks and a dayan the dayan would probably break first, but if you just solve them thousands of times the dayan cube would be in a much better shape than the rubiks (relative to the best the respective cube can be ofc)

so for a speedcuber dayan would be the better quality, but for people who would turn it a few times, manage to get one side and then put it back into the drawer, rubiks would seem superior.

 

[BrainOfSweden]

but i admit that rubik's are unpoppable, as i always needed a knife to get out a piece if i wanted to lube it.

Mine was so tight it needed to be pried open with a screw driver the first time, but after re-assembling it, it became much looser, and was from then on easy to disassemble with just my hands. Rubik's cubes seems to vary a lot in quality.

 

[cubernya]

Why is everyone saying the speedcubes we own are illegal? They were illegal to sell (unless it wasn't stickered), but they're not illegal to own (or is that not what you're saying?)

 

[Michael Womack]

Why is everyone saying the speedcubes we own are illegal? They were illegal to sell (unless it wasn't stickered), but they're not illegal to own (or is that not what you're saying?)

I agree with that also there saying that we spent over $500 on twisty puzzles that are the fake Rubik's cubes.

 

[cubernya]

I agree with that also there saying that we spent over $500 on twisty puzzles that are the fake Rubik's cubes.

Where?

 

[Johnny]

Rubik's expectation that everyone use their cubes because it's the original is like Magnavox expecting people to buy an Oddessy instead of a PS4 because Magnavox had the original console.

 

[ZigzagCuber]

Does this copyright apply to other cubing companies such as Mo Yu and fhangshi? the reason i ask this is because it said on the forum that it is seven towns verses dayan, but it doesn't really specify if it apply's to other 3x3 brands of cubes. also does this colour scheme copyright apply to 2x2 or 4x4 or higher layer cubes? does it apply to other six sided puzzles such as gear cubes or square ones?

 

[Qthulu]

also does this colour scheme copyright apply to 2x2 or 4x4 or higher layer cubes? does it apply to other six sided puzzles such as gear cubes or square ones?

This would be important for me to know, as I want to buy a Shengshou 9x9 in the next days, but don't want to risk my ordered cube to be confiscated. Also, there would be no satisfying replacement as there are no other 9x9's other than YJ and Shengshou on the market.

 

[qqwref]

The cyoubx topic says that they have a copyright on the 2x2x2 through 4x4x4 as well as any 2D depictions of them. Their website says they have a copyright on the Rubik's Cube (no mention of other sizes) "in any configuration, [sticker]ed or un[sticker]ed". Their design trademark specifically only covers a black assembled 3x3x3 fully stickered in the traditional color scheme. It's confusing. I would say that, if they wanted to, they could go after any 2x2x2 through 4x4x4 (or even 5x5x5, I suppose), assembled or no, and your only recourse would be going to court (which you do not want to do). Any cube larger than 5x5x5 is guaranteed to be safe, though.

As has been mentioned, it's still pretty up in the air how much of this would hold up in court. Their patent is expired, their trademark is quite specific, and their copyright makes little sense (how can you copyright a work of art you have not created?).

 

[sneaklyfox]

The cyoubx topic says that they have a copyright on the 2x2x2 through 4x4x4 as well as any 2D depictions of them. Their website says they have a copyright on the Rubik's Cube (no mention of other sizes) "in any configuration, [sticker]ed or un[sticker]ed". Their design trademark specifically only covers a black assembled 3x3x3 fully stickered in the traditional color scheme. It's confusing. I would say that, if they wanted to, they could go after any 2x2x2 through 4x4x4 (or even 5x5x5, I suppose), assembled or no, and your only recourse would be going to court (which you do not want to do). Any cube larger than 5x5x5 is guaranteed to be safe, though.

As has been mentioned, it's still pretty up in the air how much of this would hold up in court. Their patent is expired, their trademark is quite specific, and their copyright makes little sense (how can you copyright a work of art you have not created?).

Link provided is interesting. I read/scanned a lot. So it appears that white cubes would be legal as would be stickerless cubes?

 

[cannon4747]

I say we just all quit trying to be lawyers and instead use our considerable influence of their sales to force Rubiks to back off. It's what we did with V-cube, so why not with Rubiks?

I also don't understand why they'd want to do this. It doesn't help them much, and it pretty much only pisses off their customers. And it's not like the chinese cube manufacturers give a darn what copyrights or patents they're violating to make their products. They're just gonna keep ignoring the original inventor and sell their KO's in america anyway. And Americans will happily buy them. If Rubiks really wanted us to buy from them more exclusively, they'd start making decent puzzles and stop fighting "dirty" as many of us see it.

 

[qqwref]

I say we just all quit trying to be lawyers and instead use our considerable influence of their sales to force Rubiks to back off. It's what we did with V-cube, so why not with Rubiks?

lol

What are we gonna do, threaten to continue not buying their products?

 

[PeelingStickers]

I say we just all quit trying to be lawyers and instead use our considerable influence of their sales to force Rubiks to back off. It's what we did with V-cube, so why not with Rubiks?

I also don't understand why they'd want to do this. It doesn't help them much, and it pretty much only pisses off their customers. And it's not like the chinese cube manufacturers give a darn what copyrights or patents they're violating to make their products. They're just gonna keep ignoring the original inventor and sell their KO's in america anyway. And Americans will happily buy them. If Rubiks really wanted us to buy from them more exclusively, they'd start making decent puzzles and stop fighting "dirty" as many of us see it.

Did you go to competition with a rubik's brand?

 

[Qthulu]

As has been mentioned, it's still pretty up in the air how much of this would hold up in court. Their patent is expired, their trademark is quite specific, and their copyright makes little sense (how can you copyright a work of art you have not created?).

What if they're going to renew it?
You summarized it pretty well and I think, this whole thing will be over soon because of its senselessness.

 

[Stefan]

What if they're going to renew it?

As if that's possible...