Religion?

[AgentKuo]

Okay, this thread seriously goes too fast for me to follow it all, but I'm gonna give my perspective on three of the major points that people have brought up:

1.The Biblical Flood:
-the flood story predates the Bible by hundreds of years. The first time we see this story is probably in The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian mythology). The story was changed from the original mesopotamian one to the Biblical account, with the characters changed, and again changed to include a monotheistic god (Mesopotamian believed in multiple gods). Now because the flood story was around and many different religions and non-religions wrote down an account of it, the possibility that there was an actual flood is very likely. Of course, the flood definitely did not cover the entire earth, and most likely only covered a large portion of land, and because at the time, the world was believed to be flat, and much smaller than we know it is today, the assumption that the whole world was flooded probably seemed very realistic. So that's my take on the flood story.
(I'll also mention that Mesopotamian mythology is one of the biggest precursors, and one of the biggest influences Judaism and Christianity take from -possibly Islam too, but I don't know enough about Islam-)

2.Historical accuracies in the Bible:
-The Bible does have some historical accuracies, there's no question about it. (locations, landmarks, some wars even) However, they are few, and none of the supernatural aspects (god, visions, miracles, etc.), nor the accounts of the life of Christ have any evidence for them. The Bible is not a history book, and it should not be treated as one.

3.The Beginning of the Universe:
-This one I think is kind of pointless to debate. The universe began, that much we know. How it happened we haven't figured out yet. "goddidit" is not an acceptible answer and "sciencprovesit" isn't either.

Btw, AgentKuo: Chrisianity? :]

Yeah, I know, lol, I made a typo, but no one will tell me how to change the poll, so I had to leave it like that.

 

[drewsopchak]

How do you know what parts not to take literally?
The parts we've proven wrong?
The parts we don't agree with?
The parts in leviticus condoning slavery, is there any way we can take that metaphorically?
Is Deuteronomy 22:28–29 to be taken literally?
How about we just ignore the whole bible and
decide what is right or wrong, find out the truth, o
our own?

Morality is inate. Clearly people who pick and choose and selectively read texts don't get morality from texts. Anyone who seriously represents their beliefs and says imoral things like condoms are worse than aids, the creator of the universe hates homosexuals, and apostates should be killed should be mistrusted.

 

[Godmil]

EDIT: I know lots of people believe that life began from apes, and all that stuff...

Nobody who paid any attention in Biology class believes that.

but Im wondering, because of the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the universe continues to grow in randomness.. how did something so unrandom as life ever come to exist? I just thought of this and it doesnt seem to make sense to me....

HAHAHAHA, I love it when creationists bring out the second law of thermodynamics. I'd be very surprised if 'you just though of it' cause people have been misusing the 2nd law for decades in these situations. Write out the whole law here, reread it carefully and see if you can see where you went wrong quoting it. (hint: most creationists tend to miss out a key part cause it doesn't sit well with their argument)
EDIT: a f*x it, I don't have time to wait for the reply - here is where you went wrong.. you need to define the system... if you define it to be the universe then the overall entropy is definitely increasing, miniscule flucuations such as on the earth are well within statistical probability.. if you define it as just the earth (as most creationists do) then you're failing to take into account the sun which is key component of life on earth. If you include the whole solar system then the entroy in the sun more than covers the earth. (If you don't understand any of that then you shouldn't have quoted the 2nd law in the first place). Also unrandomness in life a weird quote, unnatural selection (like in crops and dogs) and natural selection (pretty much everything else) aren't random.

 

[zmikecuber]

lmao the flood is such odvious bull ****. To cover the tallest mountain tere would need to be 29 k feet. Look there's not enough vapor in the atmosphere for that to occur. By the way, the theory of gravity is only a theory.

interestingly enough, other ancient historians of different religions have also recorded a massive flood, and have had a similar story of Noah.

Ok, so let's assume for the sake of the following argument that God exists.

So everybody has sinned? I mean its pretty obvious, we're all pretty screwed. We all stink.

On our own as insignificant specks in the universe, we can do nothing to atone for our sins. Man has been offering sacrifice to God for this reason since the beginning of sin. Every since love has existed, theres also been a lack of it in people's hearts, which is why people sin. (please note, Im not talking about the hippie love emotion bob smith)

So if God exists, and He's perfect, we seem to be on pretty freaking bad terms with Him.

And the fact is that we cant fix this ourselves. That's why it makes sense that God would come Himself, as a Man, and redeem us.

Islam doesnt have this. Asian religions dont. Christianity is the only religion which has the redeeming quality to atone for the massive sins of mankind.

Christianity is really a very epic religion. Believing that God Himself came down as a Man in order to die for the very Men who have wounded him. As opposed to atheism... which is quite boring actually. Cuz believing everything is a big mistake... especially us... talk about depressing! heh heh

Sooo yeah. But this all hinges on whether God exists. That's the million dollar question.

HAHAHAHA, I love it when creationists bring out the second law of thermodynamics. I'd be very surprised if 'you just though of it' cause people have been misusing the 2nd law for decades in these situations. Write out the whole law here, reread it carefully and see if you can see where you went wrong quoting it. (hint: most creationists tend to miss out a key part cause it doesn't sit well with their argument)

actually Ive never considered myself to be a "creationist". lol. maybe I sound like one but yeah. I believe theres an ultimate Cause to the universe, which put it into existence. I believe in the big bang... *nods*

from wikipedia:
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the tendency that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and chemical potential equilibrate in an isolated physical system.

maybe Im incredibly stupid (actually thats most likely) but can you explain what you mean?

and yes, I did just think of it. soo you can go ahead and be surprised. heh heh

I'll end this with a joke... Philosophy is dead. Idk if anybody is going to get that... but yeah. lol.

 

[Kirjava]

Some things can not be explained by science. Take for example, rainbows. Rainbows are a mystery and you can not touch them, just like god. Despite this fact, they are still there even though there is no scientific explanation for them. So next time you find yourself doubting your faith, think of god as a rainbow. I know that this can be a difficult concept for some of you to grasp. It is just like air you can't see it but you know its there.

 

[Godmil]

actually Ive never considered myself to be a "creationist". lol.

That's cool, I was meaning though it is a staple (but long since debunked) argument that creationists use.
(oh and I editted my post above to include the reason why the 2nd law is never violated)

 

[zmikecuber]

ok yeah, so if I were God, I would use the theory of evolution to get the universe started. I mean really proving how something scientifically works doesnt disprove the existence of God.

Same with Zeus. nobody believes Zeus throws lightning bolts because we know scientifically what lightning is! but really, thats a bad proof! If I were Zeus, I would use science to throw lightning!

a better proof is showing that Zeus is an incredibly fallible and human person, and is therefore not "God".

Lastly, heres an interesting thing. When I say the word "table" you simply apprehend the concept of table..

God simply apprehends everything. its an interesting concept, and people start talking about God as a person too much. and while he is a BEING, hes not a person in the way that we simply apprehend "person".

EDIT: ok, I get your point about the sun. makes sense. but it really doesnt disprove the existence of an ultimate Cause to the universe. we should all read Thomas Aquinas!!! xD

 

[Godmil]

So everybody has sinned? I mean its pretty obvious, we're all pretty screwed. We all stink.

On our own as insignificant specks in the universe, we can do nothing to atone for our sins. Man has been offering sacrifice to God for this reason since the beginning of sin. Every since love has existed, theres also been a lack of it in people's hearts, which is why people sin. (please note, Im not talking about the hippie love emotion bob smith)

So if God exists, and He's perfect, we seem to be on pretty freaking bad terms with Him.

And the fact is that we cant fix this ourselves. That's why it makes sense that God would come Himself, as a Man, and redeem us.

The whole concept of everyone having sinned and needing redeemed... and the only way to redeem yourself is by....
is a common trope in systems that try to control people. You see the exact same thing in Scientology... people are born with thetans... the only way to remove the thetans is with auditing...
The whole idea was just created to compel people to stay in the system. It's actually quite a malitious concept.

 

[Hyprul 9-ty2]

So God doesn't make mistakes? I say he made a pretty big one when creating us.

 

[Kirjava]

ok yeah, so if I were God, I would use the theory of evolution to get the universe started.

...how?

 

[zmikecuber]

So God doesn't make mistakes? I say he made a pretty big one when creating us.

in what way?

The whole concept of everyone having sinned and needing redeemed... and the only way to redeem yourself is by....
is a common trope in systems that try to control people. You see the exact same thing in Scientology... people are born with thetans... the only way to remove the thetans is with auditing...
The whole idea was just created to compel people to stay in the system. It's actually quite a malitious concept.

are you saying that we dont sin? if so, you should prove that. Im saying IF God exists, then its impossible for us to do anything to redeem ourselves without His help. its actually part of our human nature. you mess up, you seek redemption.

...how?

well if I was all knowing and all powerful, I would be able to answer that question.

ok, so I wrote that long winded post in repsonse to Patrick who wanted me to prove that my religion was "more correct" than others, assuming that God existed. and Im saying because other religions do not have the redemption of Christianity.

 

[Muesli]

interestingly enough, other ancient historians of different religions have also recorded a massive flood, and have had a similar story of Noah.

Give me a break. Vampires have been in plenty different books, but that doesn't mean they're real.

So everybody has sinned? I mean its pretty obvious, we're all pretty screwed. We all stink.

By who's criteria? Does god just make these 'sins' up? Could he declare tomorrow that murdering everyone you see is the fastest way to salvation? Would that make murder not a 'sin' anymore?

So if God exists, and He's perfect, we seem to be on pretty freaking bad terms with Him.

If he's perfect then it follows that he is perfectly forgiving. Then he could forgive us all, problem solved. Bearing a grudge is surely a bad trait.

And the fact is that we cant fix this ourselves. That's why it makes sense that God would come Himself, as a Man, and redeem us.

So he came down to earth to exploit a loophole in his 'perfect' plan. Sounds like a pretty dumb god to me. But of course! He planned this all from the start! Wait, what?

Islam doesnt have this. Asian religions dont. Christianity is the only religion which has the redeeming quality to atone for the massive sins of mankind.

Again with the sins. God is apparently getting mad at his creation for breaking rules that he created. Your god is either stupid or incredibly evil.

Christianity is really a very epic religion. Believing that God Himself came down as a Man in order to die for the very Men who have wounded him. As opposed to atheism... which is quite boring actually. Cuz believing everything is a big mistake... especially us... talk about depressing! heh heh

So what? Michael Bay films are loud and epic. Doesn't make them good. Choosing your world view on what is most entertaining is pretty stupid. Also, happening by chance =/= mistake.


As for the 2nd law of Thermodynamics; life is no obstacle for this. The 2nd law works on a strictly macro scale. In terms of the universe the sun will obliterate us in a couple of billion years and spread our atoms amongst the cosmos. Is that disordered enough for you?

ok yeah, so if I were God, I would use the theory of evolution to get the universe started. I mean really proving how something scientifically works doesnt disprove the existence of God.

I agree with Kir. How? Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before trying to.

Same with Zeus. nobody believes Zeus throws lightning bolts because we know scientifically what lightning is! but really, thats a bad proof! If I were Zeus, I would use science to throw lightning!

You speak like science is a thing. You mean nature...

 

[Godmil]

... it really doesnt disprove the existence of an ultimate Cause to the universe. we should all read Thomas Aquinas!!! xD

The first cause argument has long been demolished: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=First_cause

 

[collinbxyz]

in what way?

Killing each other
war
pollution
etc.

If he didn't make mistakes, we either would only do good, or more likely create something other than humans.

 

[Kirjava]

well if I was all knowing and all powerful, I would be able to answer that question.

You don't seem to know what evolution is.

 

[zmikecuber]

Again with the sins. God is apparently getting mad at his creation for breaking rules that he created. Your god is either stupid or incredibly evil.

you have a flawed definition of God. God isnt a person in the way we understand a person to be. He didnt create rules. He IS the rules, and we have gone against his essence.

If he's perfect then it follows that he is perfectly forgiving. Then he could forgive us all, problem solved. Bearing a grudge is surely a bad trait.

He is all forgiving. He forgives people who want to be forgiven. He doesnt punish anyone. People in hell are there because they want to be in hell, because they hate him. We also have a very flawed view of hell... hell isnt the flames its made out to be. Its just a place were God does not come into.

So what? Michael Bay films are loud and epic. Doesn't make them good. Choosing your world view on what is most entertaining is pretty stupid. Also, happening by chance =/= mistake.

I dont choose my views on whats most entertaining. I was just making a point that atheism is quite boring in reality. I dont know why anybody would hope that atheism is true...

By who's criteria? Does god just make these 'sins' up? Could he declare tomorrow that murdering everyone you see is the fastest way to salvation? Would that make murder not a 'sin' anymore?

Once again, you have a flawed view of sin. God never orders something evil, because that is self contradictory. God cant sin against Himself because thats a contradiction.

Killing each other
war
pollution
etc.

If he didn't make mistakes, we either would only do good, or more likely create something other than humans.

thats a quite common mistake. Sin and evil is the absence of God. Like darkness. Darkness doesnt exist. Its just the absence of light. Yet it takes a form. Same with evil.

gee I hope I dont sound snooty... I hate snooty people!! hehe

 

[Specs112]

gee I hope I dont sound snooty... I hate snooty people!! hehe

You're defending a philosophically bankrupt viewpoint against a large number of people who are better informed than you. If you hated snooty people you should have abandoned this thread long ago.

 

[collinbxyz]

He is all forgiving. He forgives people who want to be forgiven. He doesnt punish anyone. People in hell are there because they want to be in hell, because they hate him. We also have a very flawed view of hell... hell isnt the flames its made out to be. Its just a place were God does not come into.

I don't hate 'him', I simply don't believe 'him'. You just said he doesn't punish anyone, than said anyone who hates him goes to hell. So he does punish those that hate him?
...

I dont choose my views on whats most entertaining. I was just making a point that atheism is quite boring in reality. I dont know why anybody would hope that atheism is true...

Maybe we're atheist because we don't want to do so much in life for something that we don't believe exists? I find church boring. And yes, I have been there with my Catholic Grandfather before.[/QUOTE]

 

[zmikecuber]

You're defending a philosophically bankrupt viewpoint against a large number of people who are better informed than you. If you hated snooty people you should have abandoned this thread long ago.

wait are you saying that you guys are snooty? O.o

Philosophy is dead.

I don't hate 'him', I simply don't believe 'him'. You just said he doesn't punish anyone, than said anyone who hates him goes to hell. So he does punish those that hate him?
...




Maybe we're atheist because we don't want to do so much in life for something that we don't believe exists? I find church boring. And yes, I have been there with my Catholic Grandfather before.

[/QUOTE]

First, no God doesnt punish the people in hell. Theyre there punishing themselves. Hell is complete and utter solitude for all eternity with yourself, knowing that you are the only one to blame for your actions, yet never admitting that to yourself.

oh and many people find Catholicism and Church in general boring because they dont understand it. when we try to make Church "fun" thats when it gets boring. Believing that you are in the presence of God aint boring.

 

[Specs112]

There is nothing that you can possibly say that will change the opinion of any of the atheists here. I'm not sure how many people keep this thread alive out of a genuine interest in debating you, and how many just find your logic, or lack thereof, highly amusing at this point.