Proposal: Add Gender Sorting on the WCA Rankings

[rowan]

But.. nobody really need that? It's funny how some people engage so much in such a silly thing

According to you. Do you have any stats on what women cubers need or want? Because you're also not a female cuber, so I'm not sure if you have a strong grasp on what those people need? Also no one needs any WCA statistics, wanting is completely different. If I think people need it, we're at a 1 one 1.

 

[vcuber13]

Do you have any stats on what women cubers need or want?

Do you?

 

[rowan]

Do you?

No, and I never asserted that they needed these rankings. I'm just saying that I think it would have positive benefits. I would still like to see anyone make an argument as to why it would be negative?

 

[DuffyEdge]

I would still like to see anyone make an argument as to why it would be negative?

+1
The WCA should just add rankings by gender..
Why not?

 

[vcuber13]

In my opinion you haven't stated a positive benefit.

 

[Endgame]

Maybe since your argument rests on the fact that I'm new, I'll wait five years and bring it up since you might take my argument into consideration then.

My arguments actually rest on the fact that you are not a member of the WCA. I will still dismiss your arguments in 10 years time if you are not a WCA member by then.

Yes, because I have access to JSTOR and can make peer-reviewed articles available for all. If I would, I could. There's actually a campaign that exists about promoting free access to peer-reviewed journals!

Fair enough, forget what I said about this.

According to you. Do you have any stats on what women cubers need or want? Because you're also not a female cuber, so I'm not sure if you have a strong grasp on what those people need? Also no one needs any WCA statistics, wanting is completely different. If I think people need it, we're at a 1 one 1.

This is the real problem I have with this discussion, even though the decision "affects" both men and women, the way the arguments are presented make it appear as if this whole change is catered to women only.

 

[Ollie]

Analogy: I as a Dutchman will send an email to the mayor of London proposing that everyone must walk using klompen, and I include a research paper about how it's healthier to walk with klompen instead of shoes. Obviously the idea will be killed instantly, because I don't live in London.

Ok, but if you were to propose something better than the types of shoes we have now then people will listen. Where you live doesn't make an idea any less stupid.

Having an opinion is not the same proposing changes.

You missed the point again. Any knowledgeable person can contribute anything to any field or organisation regardless of their 'qualifications.' There are cases in psychological research, for example, where really important papers and research has been done by outsiders without psychology qualifications, which have contributed more than a lot of fully fledged PhD doctors (look up Judith Harris.)

The same can be said about the "research" Rowan refers to.

It still doesn't make you said right.

But people did care, that's why it's an issue.

Men didn't care back then. It was only when women started to fight for equal rights by suggesting changes to the WCA Rankings by Gender did they start to care.

FULL CIRCLE.

 

[rowan]

In my opinion you haven't stated a positive benefit.

- It provides greater accessibility and visibility for the minority of female cubers. Greater visibility definitely helps people recognize that they *can* do things. Think about how many people who are in minority groups have been inspired by others. Whoopi Goldberg talks about how Star Trek's black female actress inspired her. Stories like this happen time and time again, sometimes it's hard for groups in the minority setting to see themselves accomplishing something when they don't have a similar role model.
- Women have been shown to compete better against other women due to a phenomena called stereotype threat, having stats on how female cubers are doing could potentially impact their performance and motivate them. Dene brought up some good points against this, but I still think the point stands since any points against it were merely anecdotal.
- Since female cubers are such a minority, it is unlikely, statistically speaking, that they will start showing up in any significant amount on the top 100 pages. Allowing to sort by gender can let people view how other women are doing. Without listing these rankings on the official website it honestly appears that no female cubers even exist.

I don't know why I'm being asked to repeat myself, though. If you don't think visibility and representation is important, that's a whole other argument. If these answers don't suffice and you still don't think it's positive, than why shouldn't a neutral action be taken if some people want it? Why would people not want it if it's neutral?

I honestly do not understand why there is such a backlash against such a simple addition. The WCA has sorting options for the other demographics they document like country and continent, but this one sorting option is being treated like it's going to destroy the very fabric of the WCA. If anyone was actually upset about having gender rankings at all they would be upset with the unofficial website and the documenting of gender altogether, the only person who seems to care about this is Dene. This data is already out there, there is no reason to make it more difficult to locate. This won't create a female world record. Women's profiles aren't going to have a FNR written on them or anything, it would just make these statistics simpler to locate.

I'm being asked to rehash the statements I've already made. If you think I don't matter because I'm not a part of the WCA (which I plan on going to a competition, so maybe I'll bump after that) or because I'm new, then clearly this argument has nowhere left to go.

 

[Endgame]

Ok, but if you were to propose something better than the types of shoes we have now then people will listen. Where you live doesn't make an idea any less stupid.

So? If my points are valid then what does it matter?

You missed the point again. Any knowledgeable person can contribute anything to any field or organisation regardless of their 'qualifications.' There are cases in psychological research, for example, that has been done by outsiders without psychology qualifications that have contributed more than a lot of fully fledged PhD doctors (look up Judith Harris.)

Contribute has a positive connotation. Proposing changes doesn't share that connotation. Stop trying to rephrase my arguments negatively, you are completely oblivious to the point I'm trying to make.

It still doesn't make you said right.

I doubt the WCA would change its opinion in 4 months time.

Men didn't care back then. It was only when women started to fight for equal rights by suggesting changes to the WCA Rankings by Gender did they start to care.

I think I understand why you're oblivious to my arguments.

 

[Laura O]

The WCA exists since 2003. It's 2014 now, and this type of ranking doesn't exist. 11 years is a long time and you aren't the first to think about it in 11 years. Perhaps there is a reason they've never implemented it? Maybe they just don't want it?

Well, "did not exist in the past, hasn't been implemented since, so we don't need it" is actually one of the worst arguments in this thread.
I've followed the female ranking discussions for many years now, not only in the forums, but also at competitions in several countries and I was asked several times about my opinion on this by fellow cubers. Nevertheless I have never heard any serious argument besides "equality, equality!". And I still don't get why equality is important in this ranking and not in others.

And I'm not saying this because I would probably hold some female WRs, CRs and NRs, but I like those rankings and I know from my part, that they can be quite motivating. We also didn't have the "sum of ranks" on the WCA page back in 2003, but when they were added, people started to compare themselves in this category and set their personal goals based on this. So why not finally add the female rankings with this in mind?

 

[vcuber13]

- It provides greater accessibility and visibility for the minority of female cubers. Greater visibility definitely helps people recognize that they *can* do things. Think about how many people who are in minority groups have been inspired by others. Whoopi Goldberg talks about how Star Trek's black female actress inspired her. Stories like this happen time and time again, sometimes it's hard for groups in the minority setting to see themselves accomplishing something when they don't have a similar role model.

I don't see how this is beneficial. Your example isn't comparable in my opinion, I don't think a female seeing list of female cubers will inspire them or make them realize their potential. Nor do I think a female would be deterred from pursuing a hobby simply because the top ranked cubers are for the most part male.

- Women have been shown to compete better against other women due to a phenomena called stereotype threat, having stats on how female cubers are doing could potentially impact their performance and motivate them. Dene brought up some good points against this, but I still think the point stands since any points against it were merely anecdotal.

Dene dismissed this argument, in cubing you are not in direct competition with almost all of the database, and even at competitions most people are only competing against themselves. Having stats on male cubers does not impact my motivation or performance, why is it different for females? (I'm serious)

- Since female cubers are such a minority, it is unlikely, statistically speaking, that they will start showing up in any significant amount on the top 100 pages. Allowing to sort by gender can let people view how other women are doing. Without listing these rankings on the official website it honestly appears that no female cubers even exist.

I don't see this as an issue. This may motivate a female more than your previous point would. A female may think "There's no females in the top 100, I'm going to change that".

If you don't think visibility and representation is important, that's a whole other argument.

I don't.

I honestly do not understand why there is such a backlash against such a simple addition. The WCA has sorting options for the other demographics they document like country and continent, but this one sorting option is being treated like it's going to destroy the very fabric of the WCA.

It wouldn't bother me if the stat was added, but I don't personally see the point.

Perhaps a compromise could be to add gender to the rankings page, without adding a new list / sorting option. Then if someone wants to find female cubers they could just ctrl+f.

 

[Ollie]

I think I understand why you're oblivious to my arguments.

You haven't made any arguments. Just conjecture and arguments based on assumptions or nothing at all.

All that statement says is "no you're stupid for not agreeing with me"

 

[rowan]

I don't see how this is beneficial. Your example isn't comparable in my opinion, I don't think a female seeing list of female cubers will inspire them or make them realize their potential. Nor do I think a female would be deterred from pursuing a hobby simply because the top ranked cubers are for the most part male.

Why is that not comparable? There is a reason that male-dominated things have a hard time reaching equality, it's discouraging. Why don't you talk to an actual woman about their experiences and then decide. For instance, chess has one of the highest drop out rates amongst young girls. Male-dominated fields are intimidating and discouraging. STEM fields are a good example of this.

Dene dismissed this argument, in cubing you are not in direct competition with almost all of the database, and even at competitions most people are only competing against themselves. Having stats on male cubers does not impact my motivation or performance, why is it different for females? (I'm serious)

Because men and women face different social structures, shocking.

I don't see this as an issue. This may motivate a female more than your previous point would. A female may think "There's no females in the top 100, I'm going to change that".

That ranking still exists, so those people would still be motivated to achieve records and make it into the top 100 of all cubers. As larf pointed out, the other rankings can still be encouraging. Why not have both?

I don't.

That's sad.

It wouldn't bother me if the stat was added, but I don't personally see the point.

Then stop arguing against it if you don't care.

 

[Thaynara]

Let's just stop with this really. Boys and girls are capable of achieving whatever they want. If wca decides to separate ranks or anything else by gender i will be the first girl to stop cubing. All i would like to see is some statistics on the website showing the top100 just so other girls can look at the list and get some inspiration, because I personally lost interest in cubing last year and i can guarantee that having such list can make us, girls more focused to get faster and compete more. That's all.

 

[rowan]

Let's just stop with this really. Boys and girls are capable of achieving whatever they want. If wca decides to separate ranks or anything else by gender i will be the first girl to stop cubing. All i would like to see is some statistics on the website showing the top100 just so other girls can look at the list and get some inspiration, because I personally lost intereste in cubing last year and i can guarantee that having such list can make us, girls more focused to get faster and compete more. That's all.

Thank you! I completely agree. Rankings do not need to be separate, the statistics should just be accessible on the website through sorting. So far two female cubers have said this would help them.

 

[Endgame]

And I'm not saying this because I would probably hold some female WRs, CRs and NRs, but I like those rankings and I know from my part, that they can be quite motivating.

Only women will profit from this.

You haven't made any arguments. Just conjecture and arguments based on assumptions or nothing at all.

All that statement says is "no you're stupid for not agreeing with me"

Well I do think you're stupid actually.

 

[rowan]

Only women will profit from this.

There is not true. Men can see how other men are doing if they want to. I was never advocating for separate records at any level. Both men and women will have equal opportunity to sort the statistics and check their gender's lists.

 

[Laura O]

I don't see how this is beneficial. Your example isn't comparable in my opinion, I don't think a female seeing list of female cubers will inspire them or make them realize their potential. Nor do I think a female would be deterred from pursuing a hobby simply because the top ranked cubers are for the most part male.

Then you think wrong.
It's definitely stupid and groundless that females think so, but more than a few are deterred by a majority of men. That's what it is like outside the cubing world and I don't know a reason why it should be different. At a competition last year I was literally asked by someone if I could give his daughter some motivation since she was afraid to compete with all the boys...

All i would like to see is some statistics on the website showing the top100 just so other girls can look at the list and get some inspiration, because I personally lost intereste in cubing last year and i can guarantee that having such list can make us, girls more focused to get faster and compete more. That's all.

That's what everyone is asking for.

 

[Endgame]

There is not true. Men can see how other men are doing if they want to. I was never advocating for separate records at any level. Both men and women will have equal opportunity to sort the statistics and check their gender's lists.

Is there any research that can back this up? I'm asking because you have access to more literature about the subject than I do. Personally, I never feel the need to compete with other men.

 

[Thaynara]

But.. nobody really need that? It's funny how some people engage so much in such a silly thing

Nobody need what? To know that we have girls who are able to cube?
If you are totally new into cubing, you might just think that its a ''male sport'' because thats all we have on the website provided by the wca. I've been cubing for 4 long years now and I never saw the website that you just pointed out and I will assume that many others haven't also. Creating some statistics (on wca website) isn't silly, it's just a way to show everyone that yes we have girls into this sport but more than that, to motivate girls!
Sorry but you're not a girl and we do need motivation. If it wasn't for my boyfriend who is also a cuber, i would have dropped cubing last year.