Proposal: Add Gender Sorting on the WCA Rankings

[Benyó]

girls, if you want to have female rankings and even female competitions in a sport where none of the genders have any gender-specific advantege, do it, i don't care. but then don't expect do be threaten equal to men in any of the fields of life, because you are just going to throw 150 years of feminist movement away with that move.

encouraging women with easy wrs to start cubing is stupid. whoever wants to be a world/continental/national record holder has to practice and give his/her best instead of bringing down the limit of records. by this logic, you can just make a separated rankings for non-brown-eyed cubers, cubers who are extremely nervous on comps, cubers over 50 etc.
the iq-thing: there is a small chance of the two genders' iq is a bit different (i don't no if it is true or not), but that is probably only a few iq point difference, then who cares? then separated rankings are needed for people with low iq level, normal and high at least but more like different rankings should be set in every 3-4 iq point section. if someone is born to be very stupid, s/he probably won't get good results in cubing, and smart people have bigger chance for it. this point of argument can be only valid if we assume that the most retarded male is still smarter than the smartest female... seems a bit sexist to me

so women have the same cubes, same time to practice (or even more because they live longer, but that's probably not decisive), can be same talented to men, why would separated rankings be done?
men are probably more successful in cubing because there are a lot more male cubers than female. it is not our mission to equal the numbers, everyone is free to compete and everyone has the same chance of start cubing, which happens most of the time accidentally. personally i just think boys have more interest in doing 'nerd' things while girls wants to deal with 'more important' sections of life. (based on the people i know, for example in my high school class most of the guys were able to solve the cube, including one of the dumbest, but most of the girls had never took the time to deal with cubing)

 

[rowan]

Not sure if you've read the most recent posts, but no one is arguing for separate competitions or world records, simply that the WCA gives people an option to sort rankings by gender if they so choose. I also don't think anyone is qualified to say one action "throws away 150 years of feminist movement." Equality is a simplistic view of feminism. Once again, comparing gender to other things like eye color is trivializing and I think people should stop making comparisons that really don't add anything to the conversation. There is a large difference between gender and eye-color especially if you consider marginalization and systemic oppression. Your point about IQ is such a terrible point for so many reasons I don't want to delve into. The foremost being that IQ has a huge standard deviation so separating by it is pretty pointless.

 

[ryanj92]

Whoa, non-binary genders being mentioned outside of an LGBT+ activism space? I'm in shock, honestly. This is a cool conversation considering I actually identify as non-binary. I think, personally, I would be comfortable with Not Specified because that doesn't mean I don't have a different ID, I'm just not offering it. But, if the WCA would be willing to add an "other" category, I would be in support, obviously. (Please don't direct weird questions at me about this, you can google what this means if you want.)

I spend -way- too much time on Tumblr and in the Quidditch community to be ignorant about gender identity
Thanks for your input - obviously it is super important to have the opinion of people who would be affected by these options ^^ having the option to specify as non-binary adds an extra dimension to the topic in hand (eg should we have a rankings category for something as broad as 'other'?), but as pipkiksass said earlier, this is a whole discussion on its own

I would argue that if something might encourage more women to compete without compromising the integrity of the event, it should be done.

+1

 

[Endgame]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You only just started cubing and you are not even slightly involved with the WCA. Why do you want to change the way an organisation presents its rankings when you are not involved with said organisation? Essentially you are wasting your time; the WCA has already decided they don't want this to happen. I love how you accused someone of "trivializing the issue"; the only reason this is an "issue", is because you bump this thread after 4 months of inactivity. If no one cared in the past 4 months, then it's a fact this isn't an issue.

I would bet it's at least a 100:1 ratio of men to women in the database.

You lost your bet, reading the thread would help.

I guess I just don't think people should have to go searching for the information, it should be easy to find.

The study I'm referring to I mentioned in my initial post, you can look it up if you'd like. It's a very interesting study. It might be difficult to locate if you don't have access to databases that catalog peer-reviewed journals though, sorry about that.

Double standards!

 

[ChickenWrap]

You only just started cubing and you are not even slightly involved with the WCA. Why do you want to change the way an organisation presents its rankings when you are not involved with said organisation? Essentially you are wasting your time; the WCA has already decided they don't want this to happen.

The WCA already has information sorted by country. If Rowan wants to pursue her goal with the WCA, let her do it.

You were a noob once too! Just be nice and let her do her thing.

 

[Endgame]

The WCA already has information sorted by country. If Rowan wants to pursue her goal with the WCA, let her do it.

You were a noob once too! Just be nice and let her do her thing.

The WCA sorts by country because that's the way it was in 1982. If there was no ranking by country back then, then it wouldn't exist today.
When I was a noob here, I was trolling the forums, not proposing severe WCA changes.

 

[Benyó]

Not sure if you've read the most recent posts, but no one is arguing for separate competitions or world records, simply that the WCA gives people an option to sort rankings by gender if they so choose. I also don't think anyone is qualified to say one action "throws away 150 years of feminist movement." Equality is a simplistic view of feminism. Once again, comparing gender to other things like eye color is trivializing and I think people should stop making comparisons that really don't add anything to the conversation. There is a large difference between gender and eye-color especially if you consider marginalization and systemic oppression. Your point about IQ is such a terrible point for so many reasons I don't want to delve into. The foremost being that IQ has a huge standard deviation so separating by it is pretty pointless.

my previous postwas my point of view about the whole topic, not only a response for the latest posts, and if you can choose a list of genders, there would be a 'female-wr' like we have national, continental and world rankings too.
if you read my post, it was not my point that separate iq-groups should be set up. i said how stupid would that be like the iq-gender argument (sorry if my english was a bit confusing)
and my main point is if women want (and should) to be equal, then forget the separation of genders at all. it might be understandable in phisical sports, but not in sports like cubing or chess.

 

[Sajwo]

I see no point there. :confused:

 

[ChickenWrap]

The WCA sorts by country because that's the way it was in 1982. If there was no ranking by country back then, then it wouldn't exist today.
When I was a noob here, I was trolling the forums, not proposing severe WCA changes.

How is it a severe change? It is just a way for women to see how they rank against other women, nothing more.

At least Rowan isn't trolling the forums.

 

[RageCuber]

I think some people have tricked themselves into believing that girls aren't as fast cubers as guys.
this is not true, there are just so many more male cubers than female cubers, so there are more chances
of having a talented cuber that's guy. Note how I didn't say "there is a HIGHER chance" but that "there are
more chances" because if each male cuber has an x% chance of being talented, and a female cuber also
has an x% chance, then there is not a higher chance, but simply more male cubers to possibly be talented.

 

[Laura O]

When I was a noob here, I was trolling the forums, not proposing severe WCA changes.

Where is the severe change? It's just the question to add another type of stats to the WCA page.
I don't understand why this leads to those discussions again and again.

EDIT: ninja'd, sorry

 

[Endgame]

How is it a severe change? It is just a way for women to see how they rank against other women, nothing more.

At least Rowan isn't trolling the forums.

Where is the severe change? It's just the question to add another type of stats to the WCA page.
I don't understand why this leads to those discussions again and again.

EDIT: ninja'd, sorry

The WCA exists since 2003. It's 2014 now, and this type of ranking doesn't exist. 11 years is a long time and you aren't the first to think about it in 11 years. Perhaps there is a reason they've never implemented it? Maybe they just don't want it?

Trolling the forums is about as pointless as proposing changes in an organisation you have no affiliation with.

 

[Ollie]

Pointing out stupidity and playing devil's advocate, because why not.

You only just started cubing and you are not even slightly involved with the WCA.

So? If her points are valid then what does that matter?

Why do you want to change the way an organisation presents its rankings when you are not involved with said organisation?

Because she believes it to be wrong. I don't have to be Russian or Ukrainian to have an opinion on how they conduct their politics.

Essentially you are wasting your time; the WCA has already decided they don't want this to happen. I love how you accused someone of "trivializing the issue"; the only reason this is an "issue", is because you bump this thread after 4 months of inactivity.

You don't know that, there are no announcements on the WCA forum page about it, nor have you supplied any of your own sources. Plus, now it's been resurfaced maybe it could be something they want to reconsider?

If no one cared in the past 4 months, then it's a fact this isn't an issue.

Nor is this an argument/probably true. Apply that to women's rights: "If no-one cared in the past 5000 years then it's a fact this isn't an issue."

---

Cubers such as Emily Wang, Sarah Strong and SirWaffle have certainly shown that they are capable of getting fast times and competing with the top boys in their respective events. Will update this post later with evidence from my Neuroscience sources if people insist, but the main idea is that men and women differ in certain cognitive tasks (boys tend to be faster with reaction times and spatial awareness tasks whilst girls tend to do better with verbal reasoning stuff, but there are no real differences in dexterity) however the difference isn't enough to justify differentiating by gender. This isn't the case for sports like chess, and there are obviously exceptions for physical sports which don't apply for cubing.

 

[Endgame]

So? If her points are valid then what does that matter?

Analogy: I as a Dutchman will send an email to the mayor of London proposing that everyone must walk using klompen, and I include a research paper about how it's healthier to walk with klompen instead of shoes. Obviously the idea will be killed instantly, because I don't live in London.

Because she believes it to be wrong. I don't have to be Russian or Ukrainian to have an opinion on how they conduct their politics.

Having an opinion is not the same proposing changes.

You don't know that, there are no announcements on the WCA forum page about it, nor have you supplied any of your own sources. Plus, now it's been resurfaced maybe it could be something they want to reconsider?

The same can be said about the "research" Rowan refers to.

Nor is this an argument/probably true. Apply that to women's rights: "If no-one cared in the past 5000 years then it's a fact this isn't an issue."

But people did care, that's why it's an issue.

 

[rowan]

But people did care, that's why it's an issue.

I understand your skepticism since I'm a new member, but as this thread pointed out, people do care, so that's why it's an issue. There are many people on this thread who have advocated for adding a gender sorting option. I'm not advocating for new rankings. All I am saying is that the WCA should give greater access to the information it already collects and documents. And by doing so, I believe it would positively impact female cubers; I still fail to see how this negatively impacts anyone. Maybe since your argument rests on the fact that I'm new, I'll wait five years and bring it up since you might take my argument into consideration then.

Sorry I'm not trolling and I actually want to discuss matters that I find (and others as this thread pointed out?) of importance. I didn't start the thread and I'm not the only one in support of this. It's not about making any changes to WCA regulations, policy, or the way the WCA conduct themselves/competitions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke is hardly an argument.

 

[Sajwo]

There is already a site with gender rankings. So again, what's the point?

 

[rowan]

There is already a site with gender rankings. So again, what's the point?

I've said this more than twice. The data should be on the official website so that people have greater access to them. People shouldn't have to join speedsolving.com and read through forum threads to locate this data. Accessibility and visibility is important.

 

[kcl]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You only just started cubing and you are not even slightly involved with the WCA. Why do you want to change the way an organisation presents its rankings when you are not involved with said organisation? Essentially you are wasting your time; the WCA has already decided they don't want this to happen. I love how you accused someone of "trivializing the issue"; the only reason this is an "issue", is because you bump this thread after 4 months of inactivity. If no one cared in the past 4 months, then it's a fact this isn't an issue.


You lost your bet, reading the thread would help.



Double standards!

Fair enough, I lost the bet, but my point is still solid. The probability of a male having the WR is significantly higher, you cannot deny that.

 

[rowan]

Double standards!

Yes, because I have access to JSTOR and can make peer-reviewed articles available for all. If I would, I could. There's actually a campaign that exists about promoting free access to peer-reviewed journals!

 

[Sajwo]

I've said this more than twice. The data should be on the official website so that people have greater access to them. People shouldn't have to join speedsolving.com and read through forum threads to locate this data. Accessibility and visibility is important.

But.. nobody really need that? It's funny how some people engage so much in such a silly thing