Owen's Progress Thread | Finally some updates |

[mukerflap]

I would also like to mention that if roux automatically makes you great at OH then why does sean only have a 14 official avg? We all know that he is world-class for 2H but he is objectively worse at OH then Keaton who uses CFOP. Just because you know roux does not mean it makes you better than CFOP solvers at OH. For example, Keaton has a 7.28 official avg for 2H while Sean has a 5.98. By your logic, sean should crush Keaton in oh right? I mean, it's not like CFOP solvers can be faster than roux solvers at OH if they are worse then said roux solver at 2H. Once sean can get an 11 official avg and a 7 single, then we can talk about CFOP being an awful OH method.

because sean doesnt care about OH and does LSE wrong, why is coolms19 averaging the same as sean in OH while only being sub 14 2h?

 

[Owen Morrison]

Max Park has a 6.17 Comp Style Ao10000. Does he get sub-6.2 Averages in comp? Mostly not.

That is the stupidest argument ever.

In his past 30 official averages, ALL of them are sub 7. 11 of them are 6.20 or lower. Over 30% are equal to his ao10000 or better

If you look at Kian's official averages, HE ONLY HAS ONE SUB 10 AVERAGE OF 10 EVER!

He only has one official average EVER within 1.5 seconds of his global average. 0% of Kian's averages are equal to his ao1000 or better.

I am not saying that Kian's 8.7 ao 1000 is fake, but I think that trying to use Max in this argument is absolutely stupid.

 

[Sub1Hour]

because sean doesnt care about OH and does LSE wrong, why is coolms19 averaging the same as sean in OH while only being sub 14 2h?

BUT HE USES ROUX SO HE MUST BE WORLD CLASS AT OH RIGHT?

 

[mukerflap]

BUT HE USES ROUX SO HE MUST BE WORLD CLASS AT OH RIGHT?

he would be if he did it correctly

That is the stupidest argument ever.

In his past 30 official averages, ALL of them are sub 7. 11 of them are 6.20 or lower. Over 30% are equal to his ao10000 or better

If you look at Kian's official averages, HE ONLY HAS ONE SUB 10 AVERAGE OF 10 EVER!

He only has one official average EVER within 1.5 seconds of his global average. 0% of Kian's averages are equal to his ao1000 or better.

I am not saying that Kian's 8.7 ao 1000 is fake, but I think that trying to use Max in this argument is absolutely stupid.

here is YTUWR by almost an entire second. thats a very big deal in speedcubing

 

[fun at the joy]

4 CFOP is RUFL (source: feliks OH advanced exmaple solves from cubeskills

There are literally NO L moves in CFOP OH.

 

[Owen Morrison]

2 absolutely not, feliks had an average of 3.8 rotations in 5 example solves in his OH advanced example solves

4 CFOP is RUFL (source: feliks OH advanced exmaple solves from cubeskills

7 cfop oh LL, some algs require rotations (according to feliks oh OLL 7/57 oll algs have rotations, 5/21 pll have rotations (im not dumb i didnt count auf rotation as rotation)), also the algs could be RUD/RUL which isnt as good as RUF cmll (except in 2 rud cmlls)

8 refer to 2, and feliks is pro level

9 7/57 according to cubeskills

10 5/21 according to cubeskills

Why are you talking about Feliks? We are talking about Max Park and Kian Mansour here.

Max is better than Feliks at OH, maybe the difference in their times is due to Feliks' extra rotations.

 

[ProStar]

1 for 2H

And OH

2 absolutely not, feliks had an average of 3.8 rotations in 5 example solves in his OH advanced example solves

iirc those weren't great solves for rotations, although I guess for OH it is normally around 3

3 Yes this can be proof because its unofficial and we are close to the limits

Unofficial solves aren't proof. Official solves aren't proof either, because one person doesn't define limits

4 CFOP is RUFL (source: feliks OH advanced exmaple solves from cubeskills

It's mostly either RUF or LUF, where you'll switch between pairs, which is fast, I can tell you from experience with using ZZ

5 for in case you were to mention roux FB isnt good

Still isn't RrU

6 Notice how i said X cross / cross, roux FB can be done RUFBur which is a good moveset

1st step still is Cross, even if XCross is sometimes planned. And now you're changing your story; you said before FB was RrU mostly. And RUFBur SUCKS for a moveset

7 cfop oh LL, some algs require rotations (according to feliks oh OLL 7/57 oll algs have rotations, 5/21 pll have rotations (im not dumb i didnt count auf rotation as rotation)), also the algs could be RUD/RUL which isnt as good as RUF cmll (except in 2 rud cmlls)

Then Feliks is wrong, I've seen good algs for all OLL and PLL cases with no rotations. And it's mostly RUF, with a couple D moves and almost no L moves

8 refer to 2, and feliks is pro level

I was thinking about TH levels before, and I recognize I was wrong, although in OH the average rotations is ~3

9 7/57 according to cubeskills

10 5/21 according to cubeskills

Then Feliks doesn't have all the best algs

11 not an argument

Neither is saying CFOP wasn't built for OH; it was a closing statement

12 i am referring to kian mansours seminars which showcased the possible movecount limits, i could be wrong, you never need to do y2 in FB

No but it's RUFBur which sucks

proof TPS ceiling is lower in OH? FB literally requires 0 rotations of L moves ever.

FB requires F B and u, which all aren't great and require regrips (depending on what type of F it doesn't)

Roux lookahead is only a problem when going from SB to cmll, as planning FB+SS every solve or at least FB+DR is something kian already does, and lse lookahead is extremely easy, cmll to lse is very easy too

Not really, with all the blind spots it's hard to transition from what you inspect to the rest of SB(not many people plan SS btw). LSE lookahead is ok, but CMLL isn't very good

because sean doesnt care about OH and does LSE wrong

Top notch triple post

he would be if he did it correctly

but you said Roux automatically makes you great at OH

 

[PetrusQuber]

The Roux vs. CFOP debate is getting out of hand

Recently, a lot of threads have been hijacked with debates about which method one should use. It usually starts with a beginner asking for advice—then somebody responds with something along the lines of "use CFOP, it's the best". Other people chime in, either saying "no, use x method" or "use...

www.speedsolving.com

Please. Stop. Arguing.

 

[Owen Morrison]

he would be if he did it correctly

here is YTUWR by almost an entire second. thats a very big deal in speedcubing

hmmm that is weird to have only an 8.37 average of 5 and an 8.7 average of 1000

My pb average of 1000 is literally 10.62, although, to be fair, if I would stop doing CN solves in the middle of them it would be around 9.8.

My PB average of 5 is 8.14.

 

[fun at the joy]

he would be if he did it correctly

here is YTUWR by almost an entire second. thats a very big deal in speedcubing

Feliks has a sub-9 Ao5 on yt.

 

[Sub1Hour]

Say it with me, "Rotations do not make a solve automatically bad"

The only time that I use R moves (Righty OH) is during last layer. Look at solves from Keaton Ellis and notice what moves he uses and tell me for certain that the ergonomics for CFOP are bad.

 

[AlphaCuber is awesome]

Oh look you edited to your post.

Roux movecount is obviously better, but TPS ceiling is lower, making the speed not definitely better. You have to do rotations for FB unless you do LlU. You can't reach a higher TPS because lookahead is harder in Roux than in CFOP, and lookahead does matter for OH when you're going that fast. Feliks actually would have a lot of trouble with Roux since he doesn't use it, but anyway lookahead is(again) much harder with Roux than CFOP

in the last few days I have done hundreds of leor solves OH and not once have I rotated during FB
lookahead isn’t much worse just different and because anyone doing roux OH will be faster 2h and it’s not really relevant

 

[mukerflap]

There are literally NO L moves in CFOP OH.

then do you mean z U'? thats what i meant by L moves

Why are you talking about Feliks? We are talking about Max Park and Kian Mansour here.

Max is better than Feliks at OH, maybe the difference in their times is due to Feliks' extra rotations.

feliks is undeniably world class and i consider him a good source. but anyway v

Feliks has a sub-9 Ao5 on yt.

so? my statement still stands. it is ytuwr by almost a second

hmmm that is weird to have only an 8.37 average of 5 and an 8.7 average of 1000

My pb average of 1000 is literally 10.62, although, to be fair, if I would stop doing CN solves in the middle of them it would be around 9.8.

My PB average of 5 is 8.14.

this is just oncam, and i dont see anyreason kian would lie

The Roux vs. CFOP debate is getting out of hand

Recently, a lot of threads have been hijacked with debates about which method one should use. It usually starts with a beginner asking for advice—then somebody responds with something along the lines of "use CFOP, it's the best". Other people chime in, either saying "no, use x method" or "use...

www.speedsolving.com

Please. Stop. Arguing.

why

 

[fun at the joy]

hmmm that is weird to have only an 8.37 average of 5 and an 8.7 average of 1000

My pb average of 1000 is literally 10.62, although, to be fair, if I would stop doing CN solves in the middle of them it would be around 9.8.

My PB average of 5 is 8.14.

That's YT, he has a 7.30 Ao5 PB.

so? my statement still stands. it is ytuwr by almost a second

8.37 - Kian
8.94 - Feliks
.57 difference isn't almost a second lol.

 

[PetrusQuber]

Guys it doesn’t matter. All methods can go decently fast, and speedsolving methods will go to the point where most people won’t dream of going. So all I can say is, use what you find most fun. Even if a method is harder than another method, if you find it fun - use it. And anyway, we won’t know which methods are better till we reach the limits. This started with @mukerflap saying switch to Roux and get sub 20 instantly. This is clearly false, stop posting uselessly like that.

 

[ProStar]

feliks is undeniably world class and i consider him a good source. but anyway v

Feliks is a good source but not a perfect source

so? my statement still stands. it is ytuwr by almost a second

You act like it's the only one close. And that's just YT

why

Because you aren't making sense and are making the exact same points over and over. Also because it's raining on Silgo's thread. Speaking of which,

Spoiler

Sub-23 Ao100 I'm gonna win

 

[Sub1Hour]

then do you mean z U'? thats what i meant by L moves

During F2L literally no one does that. Its also quite fast to do RUL algs with a rotation then RUD, especially since Z, is by far the fastest rotation.

 

[Owen Morrison]

literally just switch to roux for OH and get it instantly

That’s not how things work... Even if Roux is better for OH, he would lose all his skills gained from 2H CFOP and have to start over.

Anyway, good luck! I don’t do OH much but I average 24 so I might join.

Nah though roux is good for OH OH M-Slices are hard to get used to.

Will. You. Please. Shut. Up.

i keep it 100

There is no solid evidence that Roux is better for OH than CFOP. Of all records in all 3x3 events, only one has been set with Roux, with almost all of them with CFOP. I'm not saying CFOP is better, but until you have some solid objective evidence, please stop making biased and untruthful claims. You are saying that Roux is better, where it is actually your opinion and you don't have any evidence. The only thing remotely close to evidence you have submitted is Kian's times, but this isn't proof. In 1982, CFOP existed, but the fastest solvers used corners first. Does that mean that CF is the best method? No. And we can say that because we have objective proof that CF isn't as good as CFOP, while no one has proof that Roux is better than CFOP or vice versa.

What annoys me most about your posts is that instead of giving facts and comparing objectively, you state your opinion. Stating your opinion isn't a problem, but stating it as fact is.

I have a really hard time believing that Kian has an 8.72 ao1000 OH. If you go to his WCA profile almost all his averages were 11's and then he got one 9.5 average. How can you say cfop was not built for oh when the TOP 2 OFFICIAL AVERAGES IN THE WORLD were with CFOP?!?!?! Maybe Kian is legit and does have an 8.72 ao1000 blah blah blah, but you cannot say cfop is not built for OH when is has the world records. Maybe Roux is better for OH than CFOP, but CFOP is certainly a great OH method as well, considering CFOP users have the top 2 averages in the world.

While Roux might be better, there is no way to prove it. Also, even if it is better (Which is highly possible), your claim that switching to Roux would "instantly" make Owen sub 20 is ridiculous.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that CFOP is better than Roux for OH. I think Roux likely has better potential. I'm just sick of people saying CFOP is a garbage method for OH when the top two official averages were done with CFOP.

Corners first had the best average in the world in the 1980s but that doesn’t mean it was good for speedsolving

CFOP TPS ceiling is much higher



Rotations are around 2 a solve at max, which doesn't take that much time at all. Rotations are more important in TH than in OH. I will give you that Roux is better at that though



Did I not already tell you this isn't proof?



Roux is not mostly 2gen, the solves are mostly RrUM. While this isn't bad, it is definitely not 2-gen
CFOP is RUF with maybe a couple D moves in PLL



Not sure what this is for?



CFOP OH LL isn't bad
Roux CMLL is good for OH



Roux FB can't be done RrU unless you rotate afterwards (this could be untrue, I'm not super familiar with this exact concept)
Cross doesn't have rotations and is mostly RUFL, which isn't bad for how short it is. And 8 moves is the limit, not the average. Even for me the average is around 6 moves, and pros do it in less on average



F2L commonly doesn't have rotations, and at max it'll have around 2 (at pro levels)



Name an OLL that has rotations?



Again, name an OH PLL that has rotatations



Honestly you weren't built for debating



I can't speak to the average movecounts for each step, I don't remember each one, so I can't say if all of those you posted were true. Also, like I said, I'm not super familiar with Roux blockbuilding, so I could be wrong in saying FB can't be RrU without doing a y2 for SB

It does and the only bit of his evidence that is slightly off is the cross move count

I would also like to mention that if roux automatically makes you great at OH then why does sean only have a 14 official avg? We all know that he is world-class for 2H but he is objectively worse at OH then Keaton who uses CFOP. Just because you know roux does not mean it makes you better than CFOP solvers at OH. For example, Keaton has a 7.28 official avg for 2H while Sean has a 5.98. By your logic, sean should crush Keaton in oh right? I mean, it's not like CFOP solvers can be faster than roux solvers at OH if they are worse then said roux solver at 2H. Once sean can get an 11 official avg and a 7 single, then we can talk about CFOP being an awful OH method.

That's another thing; mukerflap is saying that if you use Roux for OH you will automatically be good, which is even more ridiculous than claiming it's undoubtably better than CFOP.

All right. I'm sorry I got so heated. I have edited the post. I still stand by the fact that there is no way to prove a "best method" for either OH or 3x3.

Agreed. It's hard to make that case when the Roux poster child doesn't even break top wr400 OH with a wr3 3x3 avg.

(according to the wiki)

CFOP OLL Average: 9.7 HTM
CFOP PLL Average: 11.8 HTM (Idk about that but definitely <13

CFOP OH TPS is higher. This is a fact, believe or not.

I don't think times prove anything; Roux has a smaller sample size. I just think his claims are stupid, illogical, and ridiculous.

Yeah. Even when someone switches from beginners method to something advanced, it still takes a while to get used to it.

There is no proof for anyone's PBs, no proof for Max Parks Ao1000 PB.
You just have to believe them and I really don't understand why people don't believe Kian.
Remember he has competed in 21 rounds of OH since 2018, someone like Max Park has 71 Averages.
The argument "Why doesn't he have at least a sub-9.5 Ao5 or WR or whatever in comp then?" is just stupid.

I never said that it wasn't proof because it wasn't in comp or anything, I said it wasn't proof because one person's times doesn't show the potential of a method

Oh look you edited to your post.

Roux movecount is obviously better, but TPS ceiling is lower, making the speed not definitely better. You have to do rotations for FB unless you do LlU. You can't reach a higher TPS because lookahead is harder in Roux than in CFOP, and lookahead does matter for OH when you're going that fast. Feliks actually would have a lot of trouble with Roux since he doesn't use it, but anyway lookahead is(again) much harder with Roux than CFOP

Oh okay
You meant that showing the best method's solvers PBs doesn't prove if one is better than the other method.
It's still worth it to show that the best CFOP OH solver's OH Ao1000 is 1s worse than the WB which was set with Roux though.

Yeah, but I would like to go again to my reference about CF in the 1980s:







Nerves are a big deal for him apparently, although I admit it's weird how he is globally way faster than his comp averages

Max Park has a 6.17 Comp Style Ao10000. Does he get sub-6.2 Averages in comp? Mostly not.

Mostly is still better than not at all.

1 for 2H

2 absolutely not, feliks had an average of 3.8 rotations in 5 example solves in his OH advanced example solves

3 Yes this can be proof because its unofficial and we are close to the limits

4 CFOP is RUFL (source: feliks OH advanced exmaple solves from cubeskills

5 for in case you were to mention roux FB isnt good

6 Notice how i said X cross / cross, roux FB can be done RUFBur which is a good moveset

7 cfop oh LL, some algs require rotations (according to feliks oh OLL 7/57 oll algs have rotations, 5/21 pll have rotations (im not dumb i didnt count auf rotation as rotation)), also the algs could be RUD/RUL which isnt as good as RUF cmll (except in 2 rud cmlls)

8 refer to 2, and feliks is pro level

9 7/57 according to cubeskills

10 5/21 according to cubeskills

11 not an argument

12 i am referring to kian mansours seminars which showcased the possible movecount limits, i could be wrong, you never need to do y2 in FB

proof TPS ceiling is lower in OH? FB literally requires 0 rotations of L moves ever. Roux lookahead is only a problem when going from SB to cmll, as planning FB+SS every solve or at least FB+DR is something kian already does, and lse lookahead is extremely easy, cmll to lse is very easy too

because sean doesnt care about OH and does LSE wrong, why is coolms19 averaging the same as sean in OH while only being sub 14 2h?

BUT HE USES ROUX SO HE MUST BE WORLD CLASS AT OH RIGHT?

he would be if he did it correctly

here is YTUWR by almost an entire second. thats a very big deal in speedcubing

There are literally NO L moves in CFOP OH.

And OH



iirc those weren't great solves for rotations, although I guess for OH it is normally around 3



Unofficial solves aren't proof. Official solves aren't proof either, because one person doesn't define limits



It's mostly either RUF or LUF, where you'll switch between pairs, which is fast, I can tell you from experience with using ZZ



Still isn't RrU



1st step still is Cross, even if XCross is sometimes planned. And now you're changing your story; you said before FB was RrU mostly. And RUFBur SUCKS for a moveset



Then Feliks is wrong, I've seen good algs for all OLL and PLL cases with no rotations. And it's mostly RUF, with a couple D moves and almost no L moves



I was thinking about TH levels before, and I recognize I was wrong, although in OH the average rotations is ~3



Then Feliks doesn't have all the best algs



Neither is saying CFOP wasn't built for OH; it was a closing statement



No but it's RUFBur which sucks



FB requires F B and u, which all aren't great and require regrips (depending on what type of F it doesn't)



Not really, with all the blind spots it's hard to transition from what you inspect to the rest of SB(not many people plan SS btw). LSE lookahead is ok, but CMLL isn't very good



Top notch triple post



but you said Roux automatically makes you great at OH

The Roux vs. CFOP debate is getting out of hand

Recently, a lot of threads have been hijacked with debates about which method one should use. It usually starts with a beginner asking for advice—then somebody responds with something along the lines of "use CFOP, it's the best". Other people chime in, either saying "no, use x method" or "use...

www.speedsolving.com

Please. Stop. Arguing.

Feliks has a sub-9 Ao5 on yt.

Say it with me, "Rotations do not make a solve automatically bad"

The only time that I use R moves (Righty OH) is during last layer. Look at solves from Keaton Ellis and notice what moves he uses and tell me for certain that the ergonomics for CFOP are bad.

in the last few days I have done hundreds of leor solves OH and not once have I rotated during FB
lookahead isn’t much worse just different and because anyone doing roux OH will be faster 2h and it’s not really relevant

then do you mean z U'? thats what i meant by L moves

feliks is undeniably world class and i consider him a good source. but anyway v

so? my statement still stands. it is ytuwr by almost a second

this is just oncam, and i dont see anyreason kian would lie

why

That's YT, he has a 7.30 Ao5 PB.


8.37 - Kian
8.94 - Feliks
.57 difference isn't almost a second lol.

Guys, can you please stop arguing?

We have proven 2 things:

1: CFOP is not terrible for OH

2: @mukerflap is a terrible arguer.

 

[ProStar]

Guys, can you please stop arguing?

We have proven 2 things:

1: CFOP is not terrible for OH

2: @mukerflap is a terrible arguer.

3: I'm gonna beat you at OH (short-term)

Also because it's raining on Silgo's thread. Speaking of which,

Spoiler

Sub-23 Ao100 I'm gonna win

 

[fun at the joy]

1 prove it

Max Park's Average TPS (Round2 Thanks for the Invite 2018 (9.99 Ao5)) - 7.53
Kian Mansour's Average TPS (Round2 Cubing under the Stars 2018 (10.87 Ao5)) - 5.47
Roux TPS > CFOP TPS? ... seems legit