[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

[guysensei1]

Why not solve the edges to the point where you have 1 '5x5 style parity' on it, then preserve that edge till LL, and then do either inner parity or outer parity on it, to avoid 4x4 style parity?

 

[mark49152]

Why not solve the edges to the point where you have 1 '5x5 style parity' on it, then preserve that edge till LL, and then do either inner parity or outer parity on it, to avoid 4x4 style parity?

Yeah that is what I do now. My original point was that I try to influence edges to end up with an LL edge rather than an F2L edge in this state. Otherwise I can't use a parity alg with outer block turns because it would mess up the F2L corner. Besides which, I might have to solve it into a flipped state and solve that F2L slot again.

 

[supercavitation]

Why not solve the edges to the point where you have 1 '5x5 style parity' on it, then preserve that edge till LL, and then do either inner parity or outer parity on it, to avoid 4x4 style parity?

If I have that left, I do that, but I use the 5x5 L2E algs to try to avoid that case, since I'd very much rather just have 4x4 parity than 5x5 parity (much faster on the 4x4 algs, so if I can avoid doing that 5x5 alg, I do). Don't know if it's actually faster, but I like it better.

 

[mark49152]

I could certainly save some time by learning L2E algs for cases that otherwise require me to flip, slice, flip, slice, and still be left with parity.

I did a little investigation to see how many moves these algs actually save relative to intuitive reduction to O-parity. It's not specific to Hoya but since the discussion started here I thought I'd post here.

My O-parity alg is 17 moves. That's what prompted me to look into this - the Meep algs are generally several moves shorter anyway, which is not what I expected. My flip is 7 moves.

Chess offers the biggest move saving. To solve this via reduction to an O-parity case as I do today involves 4 slices, 3 flips and O-parity, or 42 moves. Compare to 14 for the Meep alg. A remarkable saving of 28 moves. D-parity and 2-swap also save over 20 moves.

Based on that, for 6x6 I think that faced with a Chess case, I would do the Chess alg and accept the 50/50 chance that I'd have to do 4x4 parity later.

 

[Berkmann18]

I don't find the single tredge fix that awful. I just use my 4x4 parity alg on it. I find it easy enough to intuitively reduce to that case too. I could certainly save some time by learning L2E algs for cases that otherwise require me to flip, slice, flip, slice, and still be left with parity.

However, as Chree said, how do 5x5 L2E algs help with 6x6? You could avoid the checkerboard on the quedge but then still find yourself with 4x4 style parity after F2L.

You can solve the quedge more efficiently and quicker

 

[Chree]

I did a little investigation to see how many moves these algs actually save relative to intuitive reduction to O-parity. It's not specific to Hoya but since the discussion started here I thought I'd post here.

My O-parity alg is 17 moves. That's what prompted me to look into this - the Meep algs are generally several moves shorter anyway, which is not what I expected. My flip is 7 moves.

Chess offers the biggest move saving. To solve this via reduction to an O-parity case as I do today involves 4 slices, 3 flips and O-parity, or 42 moves. Compare to 14 for the Meep alg. A remarkable saving of 28 moves. D-parity and 2-swap also save over 20 moves.

Based on that, for 6x6 I think that faced with a Chess case, I would do the Chess alg and accept the 50/50 chance that I'd have to do 4x4 parity later.

Interesting stuff... this could be useful. Chess is honestly my least favorite case, and it's the only alg I never bothered to memorize. If I get it while doing redux, I do F U' R y and then Checkers instead (a much easier alg, imo).

But bringin' it back 'round to Hoya...

I picked each alg by how much it disturbs the Cross. If the target tredges are in UB/UF (U Layer Case), most cases have an alg you can choose that will leave the Cross alone.

If the targets are in FL/FR (F Layer Case), every parity case will disturb the Cross. Most of them are very easy to fix with just an extra "U2" at the end of the alg (2-swap, Na/Nb, Checker L/R), and some need "U2 F2" (P Parity, D Parity).

But Chess is the only alg where it's more beneficial to do the F case. The U Layer Case disturbs the Cross by swapping DL and DR... super annoying to fix on 5x5 or bigger. But the F Layer Case leaves you with an easier fix of "U2 D2". And if you have to pre-AUF the Chess alg with a U2, it cancels out a move and the after-fix is just a U2.

Of course, since I'm lazy, I've been doing a flip alg and then Checkers instead. It's probably about time I finished the set.


Now bringing it back to 6x6, I wonder which of the parity cases are most (or least) worth it even if it still results in 4x4 OLL parity. If I had to guess it'd say P parity is the only one, since it's even fewer moves than doing a slice-flip.

 

[supercavitation]

I did a little investigation to see how many moves these algs actually save relative to intuitive reduction to O-parity. It's not specific to Hoya but since the discussion started here I thought I'd post here.

My O-parity alg is 17 moves. That's what prompted me to look into this - the Meep algs are generally several moves shorter anyway, which is not what I expected. My flip is 7 moves.

Chess offers the biggest move saving. To solve this via reduction to an O-parity case as I do today involves 4 slices, 3 flips and O-parity, or 42 moves. Compare to 14 for the Meep alg. A remarkable saving of 28 moves. D-parity and 2-swap also save over 20 moves.

Based on that, for 6x6 I think that faced with a Chess case, I would do the Chess alg and accept the 50/50 chance that I'd have to do 4x4 parity later.

I knew I was saving a few moves, I didn't think it was that many, wow. Thanks!

 

[mark49152]

I picked each alg by how much it disturbs the Cross.

Yeah good point, I did not check out how those algs would affect cross. I guess I could adapt your idea and restore my cross (remember I hide edges at the back) before the L2E alg one of two different ways depending on whether I want to flip one of the L2E. That would also avoid rotations and would add only one move. So L' R F U to keep their alignment and R U' F L' to flip it e.g. Chess to Checkers.

That works for Checkers but I guess I'll have to go through the rest and see whether any trash the cross. Not got much time for cubing this week unfortunately...

 

[guysensei1]

Troubling hoya cross case for me,
How would you guys solve the white/green cross edge here?

 

[G2013]

I don't use Hoya, but I did a bunch of sub-1 solves with it, and I average 1:10-1:25 with it (I'm currently sub-1 with Yau, so it's very good for me)

I'd solve that case with the inverse of the alg you used to set it up, but using Rws instead of rs: B2 U2 Rw U2 Rw' U Rw U' Rw'

 

[Chree]

Troubling hoya cross case for me,
How would you guys solve the white/green cross edge here?

Honestly? Intuitively. I don't have a specific alg for this case.

Usually: B2 U' Rw U Rw' U Rw U' Rw'
Preferably: B R' U2 [R] Rw U' Rw' (you only need to do that [R] if you need to restore a cross piece on DR)

 

[Berkmann18]

Troubling hoya cross case for me,
How would you guys solve the white/green cross edge here?

You shouldn't have too much slots filled before finishing L2Ce as you would only be able to preserve one dedge or 3 if you use the Yau way.

 

[qaz]

Troubling hoya cross case for me,
How would you guys solve the white/green cross edge here?

I'd do it as L' B' L r U' r', doing the B' as a slight rotation + U' with left index

 

[Hssandwich]

Troubling hoya cross case for me,
How would you guys solve the white/green cross edge here?

B' L2 F' r' F r
Or
B2 U' Rw U Rw2 F Rw F'

 

[Berkmann18]

Is there anyone who solve the parity before the LL on even cubes, the thing is regarding to 4x4, I do the OLL parity during the LS stage (F2LL), or when doing it before (in my case ZBLS/OLS/CLS) or even on the edge pair itself ?

 

[United Thought]

Troubling hoya cross case for me,
How would you guys solve the white/green cross edge here?

F2 Lw2 U' R' U R Lw2

I might actually switch to hoya. What appeals to me over Yau is :
-The fact that once you centres are done, the rest of hoyduction can be done rotationlessly, allowing great lookahead and tps
-The fact that you can solve F4C with no restrictions, unlike Yau.
-You don't have to go through the awful Yau stage of F3E.

Despite the fact that Hoya movecount is higher, I believe it can match Yau

 

[Berkmann18]

F2 Lw2 U' R' U R Lw2

I might actually switch to hoya. What appeals to me over Yau is :
-The fact that once you centres are done, the rest of hoyduction can be done rotationlessly, allowing great lookahead and tps
-The fact that you can solve F4C with no restrictions, unlike Yau.
-You don't have to go through the awful Yau stage of F3E.

Despite the fact that Hoya movecount is higher, I believe it can match Yau

I switched to Hoya for exactly those reasons regardless of the movecount difference

 

[United Thought]

I switched to Hoya for exactly those reasons regardless of the movecount difference

Also the fact that in hoya you can look further ahead in inspection whereas in yau, you can only go as far as your first 2 centres most of the time.

 

[Berkmann18]

Also the fact that in hoya you can look further ahead in inspection whereas in yau, you can only go as far as your first 2 centres most of the time.

That depends if you are able to look ahead for different cubies than the ones you will solve straight away or not but looking ahead for the F2Ce transition to the S2Ce is easier imo which I'm sure is also easier for you.

 

[United Thought]

That depends if you are able to look ahead for different cubies than the ones you will solve straight away or not but looking ahead for the F2Ce transition to the S2Ce is easier imo which I'm sure is also easier for you.

Definitely. Also, if you have a lot of pre-made center-bars in hoya, it is easier to track the same piece type than trying to preserve a cross edge in Yau.

I don't think I will switch fully to hoya, at least not at this stage. I just feel like I am too far down the road with Yau, but I will ceretainly keep hoya as a strong reserve for lucky scrambles.