[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

[Chree]

Any thoughts on dual color neutrality on Hoya? I have started doing it recently, and the times on both white and yellow cross are fairly close. In my 46.22 ao5 video a few were yellow cross too.

I have had thoughts, yes... It can help cut down on rotations and take advantage of stuff that's already built.

For example, you finish Green and Blue centers, and rotate with Blue on L. If I saw that Red was already halfway built, I could finish that off, then do x' and finish yellow, then another x' to get started on Cross.

As it stands, since I'm White Cross Only, I'd then have to do x to finish white, and then x' y2 to get started with cross. And I sure do hate y2's.

Or it's just nice if the Yellow face is already mostly done, so y'know. I'm not used to working with Yellow cross, but this is motivation for me to practice it more.

 

[Berkmann18]

Does anyone use Rw U' Rw F instead of U' Lw' U Lw for cross edges? I find that its slightly faster for me.

Yup, I do both depending on where my hands are.

 

[Berkmann18]

Any thoughts on dual color neutrality on Hoya? I have started doing it recently, and the times on both white and yellow cross are fairly close. In my 46.22 ao5 video a few were yellow cross too.

I do that quite a lot and it helps in a way that when there's easy cases or skips it can shave a few seconds.
So I suggest you to go for it even if it's an adjacent dual color neutrality where you would do the cross on one of the second centre (e.g: if you do blue/green first then do white and red, you would have the choice between the white cross and red one).

The Adj. DCN, in my case, is really hepful when my two cross colors where the ones I solved first so I can fully take advantage of what is prebuild or easier.

 

[cashis]

I do adjacent color neutrality, because that means I can start with any centers

 

[mark49152]

Awesome to see Jong-Ho podium in 4x4 at worlds - I take it he used Hoya?

 

[Username]

I've been playing around with hoya a bit on 4x4, and I'm actually getting down close to my yau times already.

How do I optimize the first centers?

 

[Chree]

I've been playing around with hoya a bit on 4x4, and I'm actually getting down close to my yau times already.

How do I optimize the first centers?

You can do F4C the Aaron LoPrete way and your first 2 centers are opposite non-cross colors, there's not much difference between Yau and Hoya for F2C in that case. There are some videos out there on Yau F2C that could help. I think ottozing had one on his channel with a bunch of walkthrus.

You can also do F4C the Jong-Ho way... which is to build adjacent centers (ie, Red > White > Orange > Blue). He has a few example solves on his channel as well.

You can go back and forth between each approach depending on what you see during inspection. I almost always go the LoPrete route. It's just easier, since I was already used to F2C with Yau. But if I see that my cross center is 3 moves from being finished, I mgiht start with that and build around it.

Sometimes nothing obvious is built, but you can still set up some cases that have pretty fast algs to solve a whole face, such as (r u r').

 

[~Adam~]

[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

Awesome to see Jong-Ho podium in 4x4 at worlds - I take it he used Hoya?

According to Rob Yau he has switched to Yau.

Edit - have had confirmation from Hoya himself that he was in fact using Hoya during WC.

 

[mark49152]

According to Rob Yau he has switched to Yau.

Edit - have had confirmation from Hoya himself that he was in fact using Hoya during WC.

Thanks - did he consider switching to Yau? It would be interesting to know his thoughts on relative weaknesses between the methods and why he might have considered switching.

 

[~Adam~]

Thanks - did he consider switching to Yau? It would be interesting to know his thoughts on relative weaknesses between the methods and why he might have considered switching.

He has been solving with Yau but still thinks his method is faster. I'll get to chat to him about it next month since he's coming to my comp at the end of August.

 

[Chree]

I finally made the commitment to stick with Hoya on 6x6. After a week of doing just a few timed solves a day, I finally had my first counting sub 3!

3:01.55, (2:59.07), (3:16.46), 3:09.46, 2:59.26

You simply can't match the efficiency of reduction. But if you work at it it can be close enough! The usual benefits given during L8E and 3x3 stage are prob what made me wanna make the switch. My redux average is still at least 15 seconds slower.

 

[Berkmann18]

I finally made the commitment to stick with Hoya on 6x6. After a week of doing just a few timed solves a day, I finally had my first counting sub 3!

3:01.55, (2:59.07), (3:16.46), 3:09.46, 2:59.26

You simply can't match the efficiency of reduction. But if you work at it it can be close enough! The usual benefits given during L8E and 3x3 stage are prob what made me wanna make the switch. My redux average is still at least 15 seconds slower.

That's cool, I'm probably gonna switch to Hoya on 6x6 too considering more and more people get faster after switching off redux (7x7 included) and that it could be a benefit practicewise for 5x5 and vice-versa.
The only thing I don't like about Hoya4/5 is that on L4E I have to use slice-only algs

 

[Chree]

The only thing I don't like about Hoya4/5 is that on L4E I have to use slice-only algs

You can totally use different algs for L4E on both 4x4 and 5x5.

On 4x4, I use a few of Robert Yau's Last 2 or 3 Edge algs:

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?38421-Special-Yau-last-2-3-dedges-algorithms

And for 5x5, I use all but 2 of Meeps L2E algs for both E layer and M Layer cases (The N algs are good for E layer but not M layer, and Chess is terrible for both on Hoya). You just have to notice which ones effect the Cross Edges and how to fix it after. Play around with which algs are best. Some are terrible for Hoya and not worth it, but most of them are just fine:

http://meep.cubing.net/l2e.html

 

[Berkmann18]

You can totally use different algs for L4E on both 4x4 and 5x5.

On 4x4, I use a few of Robert Yau's Last 2 or 3 Edge algs:

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?38421-Special-Yau-last-2-3-dedges-algorithms

And for 5x5, I use all but 2 of Meeps L2E algs for both E layer and M Layer cases (The N algs are good for E layer but not M layer, and Chess is terrible for both on Hoya). You just have to notice which ones effect the Cross Edges and how to fix it after. Play around with which algs are best. Some are terrible for Hoya and not worth it, but most of them are just fine:

http://meep.cubing.net/l2e.html

I know like two algs for every single edge cases apart from a few ones when done in a K4/5LL but the thing is that it's faster to the wide version as it's faster.
I do know how 2 of the algs affects the layer (where both edges are) but it's just better to keep things where they are so I don't have to track them so I know straight-away were the pieces are and how they are.
Lol the N are better for me on M (also when done when using K4/5) than E slice as I have to rotate or swap one of the edges to bring it to an other case that I can do on E.
Also most of the algs I use for edges are KhLLs and COLLs so I know how it could potentially affect the edges.

 

[mark49152]

I finally made the commitment to stick with Hoya on 6x6.

Great, how do you approach it? I haven't spent enough time on 6x6 to even claim competence, but I found my Hoya skills transferred easily from 4x4 and 5x5. The lookahead benefits enable me to at least keep moving rather than stopping and searching all the time, which is what my freeslice is like.

For cross quedges I solve inner edges first 4x4-style, then outer edges 5x5-style, mostly, so that I can stick with outer block turns and avoid slices. I solve an extra quedge and store two in the back slots leaving FD unsolved, to make lookahead easier for the remaining edges. Then solve inner edges like the latter part of 3-2-3, followed by outer edges 5x5 AvG style. I find that helps with lookahead, as all I'm ever searching for is inner edges. I never have to hunt outer edges.

The part I find hardest is OLL parity. Unlike 4x4, one specific quedge may need fixing, and unlike 5x5 it's not clear how to fix it until after F2L is solved. So during edge pairing I try to make sure it's one of the U layer quedges that ends up this way, and not an F2L quedge, so that I don't disrupt F2L when fixing parity later. That makes the edge stage a bit harder though. Perhaps I should learn to fix parity using slices only.

Any comments or guidance appreciated.

 

[Berkmann18]

Great, how do you approach it? I haven't spent enough time on 6x6 to even claim competence, but I found my Hoya skills transferred easily from 4x4 and 5x5. The lookahead benefits enable me to at least keep moving rather than stopping and searching all the time, which is what my freeslice is like.

For cross quedges I solve inner edges first 4x4-style, then outer edges 5x5-style, mostly, so that I can stick with outer block turns and avoid slices. I solve an extra quedge and store two in the back slots leaving FD unsolved, to make lookahead easier for the remaining edges. Then solve inner edges like the latter part of 3-2-3, followed by outer edges 5x5 AvG style. I find that helps with lookahead, as all I'm ever searching for is inner edges. I never have to hunt outer edges.

The part I find hardest is OLL parity. Unlike 4x4, one specific quedge may need fixing, and unlike 5x5 it's not clear how to fix it until after F2L is solved. So during edge pairing I try to make sure it's one of the U layer quedges that ends up this way, and not an F2L quedge, so that I don't disrupt F2L when fixing parity later. That makes the edge stage a bit harder though. Perhaps I should learn to fix parity using slices only.

Any comments or guidance appreciated.

You should definitely learn the pure parities algs even if they are annoying they will still save you some time. As for knowing what edges of the last quedge are in a parity state, you should learn and try to recognise if there's an odd number of flipped edges and the plus of Hoya is that you will have 4 quedges less to look at. Even tho it might take some time to master, it's really useful to know no matter if it's when only the cross is solved or an XX-Cross or F2L-1.
If you want to know what is the easiest and quickest way to tell if a a big edge's portion (for 5x5+) or a dedge is in an EO parity than I suggest you to play with VH or Petrus on any big cube you want and test yourself on how efficiently and how fast you can tell if you have parity or not (if it's a 6x6 than the "exercise" would apply to the edges of that particular quedge).

 

[supercavitation]

The part I find hardest is OLL parity. Unlike 4x4, one specific quedge may need fixing, and unlike 5x5 it's not clear how to fix it until after F2L is solved. So during edge pairing I try to make sure it's one of the U layer quedges that ends up this way, and not an F2L quedge, so that I don't disrupt F2L when fixing parity later. That makes the edge stage a bit harder though. Perhaps I should learn to fix parity using slices only.

I use Yau6, not Hoya6, but I figure the same tip should apply. I learned a slices only parity alg, but I've also learned some 5x5 L2E algs that vastly reduce the frequency of that case. I don't know if that's something you're willing to try, but they helped immensely with 6x6.

 

[Chree]

I use Yau6, not Hoya6, but I figure the same tip should apply. I learned a slices only parity alg, but I've also learned some 5x5 L2E algs that vastly reduce the frequency of that case. I don't know if that's something you're willing to try, but they helped immensely with 6x6.

How do you apply L2E algs to avoid parity cases? Do you wait until after doing F2L to finish L2E?

 

[supercavitation]

How do you apply L2E algs to avoid parity cases? Do you wait until after doing F2L to finish L2E?

I avoid 5x5 parity, not 6x6 parity. I meant that I avoid the specific case he was referencing, which is really just awful. Also, because of the way Yau6 works, my last 2 edges have already been reduced to 5x5 tredges, so I can always use an L2E alg from 5x5.

 

[mark49152]

I avoid 5x5 parity, not 6x6 parity. I meant that I avoid the specific case he was referencing, which is really just awful. Also, because of the way Yau6 works, my last 2 edges have already been reduced to 5x5 tredges, so I can always use an L2E alg from 5x5.

I don't find the single tredge fix that awful. I just use my 4x4 parity alg on it. I find it easy enough to intuitively reduce to that case too. I could certainly save some time by learning L2E algs for cases that otherwise require me to flip, slice, flip, slice, and still be left with parity.

However, as Chree said, how do 5x5 L2E algs help with 6x6? You could avoid the checkerboard on the quedge but then still find yourself with 4x4 style parity after F2L.