Europe 2008

[Erik]

lol You know I don't have anything against you coming! And of course you may give as many rounds as you like

 

[Stefan]

it was originally a closed competition untill a few days ago, if it can be changed that easy, it's no problem to change it back. (which is made clear now, most Europeans really want to have!!!!!!!!!)

How do you know that? I think *at most* a dozen have said so. Maybe if you multiply that by the number of your exclamation points.

 

[rxdeath]

haha i'm glad you are willing to tolerate my presence, especially when i'm buying beer....i appreciate it .

on a special important side note, i want to say i've been privileged to call someone my friend for at least a year now, and i sincerely hope that hasn't been damaged in any way, because i sincerely value your friendship doudou.

 

[Tyson]

Hey, idea. I see that a lot of Europeans are still insistent on a closed European Championship. Not much we can do about this one now that it's open, but future championships can be open only to people who have qualified at a national level competition in Europe earlier that year. So for instance the French Open and the Dutch Open and the German Open and all the other national level competitions can send x of their top cubers to the European Championships, and x can be as big or small as you like. As the years go by and cubing continues to grow in popularity, this would also help keep big competitions manageable.

That way the European Championships can actually be a championship event rather than just a competition that's larger than usual and arbitrarily called the European Championships. And you can have your closed competition, but it will be closed based on merit and not citizenship, which is something I think people would be more inclined to respect.

I would propose a variation of that idea. So let's take a future European Championships for example. Certain events in the year leading up to the event are designated as qualification events. This events would probably be...

UK Open, German Open, Swedish Open, Belgium Open, Polish Open, Shelley Open, etc.

When you go to a qualifying event, your performances are recorded and ranked against everyone else who went to the qualifying event. And then, we would say the top 64 3x3x3 speed solve averages from these competitions would be invited to the championships.

I think if someone is willing to travel all over to try and get more attempts to qualify, that would be fine.

So the United States would also have something similar, at least each region would have its own qualifier. These would probably be the San Francisco competition in January, Berkeley Open, San Diego Open, a Caltech Spring competition, something in Denver, and maybe three on the East Coast. I would also allow German Open, and other European Opens to serve as qualifiers for the national championships... maybe.

This is how the US Chess Championships works kind of... you can either qualify through ELO rating, or you can qualify through certain qualifying events.

 

[Worms]

Do you really lack that much confidence in Europeans?

If this were actually a problem, again, it's nothing more than just a mental process to separate in your heads. The final round would really be the round before all the Europeans got knocked out. The round after that is really just to discern the foreigners, who in your mind, will be crushing all the Europeans in 10 years. I find this impossible. Europe has some of the most talented cubers in the world.

But... look how silly your line of reasoning has gotten. You really believe in 10 years, there won't be a single European in the top 50 of cubing? Do you really believe this? Again, if you do, let's bet money. I make a living off of people who mis-value things and probabilities.

It's only an example, not an affirmation, I can't bet, sorry (with TOP10 maybe ) Everybody know that top50 with 0 european is quite difficult, but a big percent of non european in topX is very probable
now in WCA:
european: 938 persons
non-european: 2078 persons

now in the world (aproximately):
european: 800 millons
non-european 5700 millons

In top100 3x3 average, there are 72 non-europeans and 28 europeans

Every year there are more non-european cubers than european.
Is logical that it in a future it will be more difficult to an european enter in world championship final. or doesn't you lack that much confidence in non-europeans?

Europe is for european, north america is for north american, the european championship is for european, the north american championship is for north american. The unique solution, is change the name of the championship, it's a very easy and intelligent solution, not?

sorry but i finish my discution here (i think ), it's dificult to me speak in english, and this thread is very very very long and it might never finish

I hope to met you all in spain, because I think that it will be an open for everyone. Thanks to Ron, David Calvo, 7town, goliath games, etc that are organising a fantastic championship for free for us

rxdeath sorry for my sarcastics messages

je veut aussi une bierre tobias!!!!

 

[Dene]

Yea so on the topic of Utilitarianism, Hume>Mill.

 

[Pedro]

well, I've read the whole thread (why, btw? ), and I'd like to say a few things

how many non-europeans do you guys expect to be there?
how many top-class ones?
do you really think Nakajima or Jasom Baum or Harris would go there simply to "beat the europeans" and "mess up with their competition"?
how likely is that to happen?

other thing...
as Tyson said many times, just give titles/medals/money to the europeans...let other people go there, have fun, set official times, NRs or WRs, but they don't "win" the competition

well, of course this is just my point of view...

another thing...

Clancy is saying about being fairer, giving all the people the same opportunity
of course, not everybody has the same opportunity to go to Bilbao and compete. Maybe some spanish guys can't afford the trip or have other things to do...
so, if we can do something to make the opportunities a bit more equal, why not?

 

[KJiptner]

The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:

Should we allow Martians to compete at the World Championship?

 

[Pedro]

The question that really stalkes me all the time, since this discussion came up:

Should we allow Marsians to compete at the World Championship?

well, if it's "World" championship, no, we shouldn't

if we change the name to "Universe champ", maybe

 

[anders]

This discussion shows the health of our society, in the sense that we can still discuss this matter in a somewhat civilised manner. The debate is still quite decent despite the fact that there is a strong disagreement in the subject itself. Congratulations to ourselves (even if I, personally, miss the carrot argument – Anssi, please resolved the issue by introducing a new and refreshing vegetable! .

On the other hand, I miss a great part of the cubing society in the discussion. Where is the Asian opinion (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Pilipino, Indian…)? They do not contribute to this discussion that is held in English, but they are a significantly part of our community. Another language/nationality barrier issue is the opinion of the cubers in Spain. What do they think about the discussion regarding the competition that is going to be held in their country? (Of course, I know that there is no “Asian opinion” or ”Spannish cubers’ opinion”, but there are opinions from cubers in Asia and from cubers in Spain, not quite expressed here. Furthermore, Spain is not homogenous… No nit-picking regarding this, please.)

My personal opinion is the following. I have the uttermost sympathy for the position of Stefan Pochmann, that it, the only important results are the personal best and the world record; all other discriminations are artificial (I hope that is a correct interpretation of your position, Stefan). In the spirit of this, all competitions that is held in Sweden and that I am responsible for will be OPEN. On the other hand, my gut feeling is that Euro 2008 should be closed. And in this case, I trust my gut feeling (as long as the WCA accepts closed competitions… . There is history, there is culture. Shelley, Tyson, et al, I would love to have a discussion with you about my gut feeling regarding a closed EC; it’s a non-trivial matter and most of the arguments have already been mentioned in this thread; let’s have it over a pint next time we meet (as invited in previous posts)!

As for my personal situation: I am most grateful that I was allowed to compete in US (Open) Championships 2007 even though I’m not an US citizen, but I would never demand any rights to participate. I will not be able to compete in the European (Open?!?) Championships 2008 in Derio due to personal reasons.

(I cannot resist putting some petrol on the fire: an inclusion of EC in WC had been common practice in ice hockey…)

As a bottom-line, we should never forget the mission of WCA: "more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions", and personally, I stress the fun part. If it’s not fun anymore, there will be no one left to organise competitions.

 

[rxdeath]

The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:

Should we allow Martians to compete at the World Championship?

well if you're serious..i think that world championship would be fair to exclude martians because i assume their genetic makeup is different in some way, because then we aren't all inherently 'the same' anymore as is the case here on earth. if some martian has 3 hands with 10 fingers with an eyeball in the middle of each palm, i don't want a piece of that

what's interesting is if in the future we manage to colonize mars, now what? eventually genetics will alter in a different environment and the human species could branch off in 2 different directions. then it starts to get icky about world champions...human champion maybe?

@anders, am i et al? is my name like lord voldemorts now?

 

[anders]

@anders, am i et al? is my name like lord voldemorts now?

Well, I prefer to refer to real names and I do not think that rxdeath is your real name. But this does not imply that I do not take your arguments seriously.

 

[Swordsman Kirby]

if some martian has 3 hands with 10 fingers with an eyeball in the middle of each palm, i don't want a piece of that

Think about the possibilities for BLD cubing!

 

[rxdeath]

@anders, am i et al? is my name like lord voldemorts now?

Well, I prefer to refer to real names and I do not think that rxdeath is your real name. But this does not imply that I do not take your arguments seriously.

i reread your post and mis-read it. thanks for being so open minded and your points are very good, i do appreciate everyone's input (espeically those who agree with me lol jk jk)

i would also like a non-north/south american or european opinion and encourage our asian friends to speak up on this discussion. not to keep a heated debate going, but it would just be interesting to hear another groups opinion.

 

[Dene]

As for human species changing, it is surely sooner to occur than many think. with global warming, there is likely to be a huge disaster coming soon (evolutionarily speaking) that could force evolution of the human species. (off topic ftw. Also, if there's gonna be another vegetable, how about going along similar lines as carrot, and using celery?)

 

[Bryan]

So the United States would also have something similar, at least each region would have its own qualifier. These would probably be the San Francisco competition in January, Berkeley Open, San Diego Open, a Caltech Spring competition, something in Denver, and maybe three on the East Coast. I would also allow German Open, and other European Opens to serve as qualifiers for the national championships... maybe.

Why would you limit it to just certain competitions? I think if you make people prequalify by attending any "regional" competition, that should be enough. Even if you have a weak region, it's going to be by time anyway. But the idea of certain regional competitions being "less" than others would be the kiss of death to many competitions. Just think how far people will travel for an official WCA competition compared to an unofficial competition.

 

[hdskull]

I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...

Can you win something if it's closed?


I read up to page 21.

I think all these complaints/messages should be to the Euro2008 Organization Team instead, because most of us aren't in that organization team. More posts will just elongate this dispute. (If someone already suggested this, then please ignore).

I think the tournament should be restricted to European residents. Even though I'm a Chinese citizen, after living in the United States for so long make me feel integrated with the American culture. If I was excluded from an event in the United States solely because I am not a citizen(but a permanent resident) would tick me off.

 

[hdskull]

When you go to a qualifying event, your performances are recorded and ranked against everyone else who went to the qualifying event. And then, we would say the top 64 3x3x3 speed solve averages from these competitions would be invited to the championships.

I think if someone is willing to travel all over to try and get more attempts to qualify, that would be fine.

So the United States would also have something similar, at least each region would have its own qualifier. These would probably be the San Francisco competition in January, Berkeley Open, San Diego Open, a Caltech Spring competition, something in Denver, and maybe three on the East Coast. I would also allow German Open, and other European Opens to serve as qualifiers for the national championships... maybe.

This is how the US Chess Championships works kind of... you can either qualify through ELO rating, or you can qualify through certain qualifying events.

This would be great, it gives the residents a chance to qualify in Europe and not excluded simply because they are not citizens.

I had been thinking about this for the US Open and how great it would be if a winner can get a paid trip to US Open but it doesn't seem feasible, because you guys won't have enough money. (Maybe the winner of a region can participate at US Open for free?) I'm just looking forward to the next competition I can attend. haha.

 

[cmhardw]

I think Arnaud presented the ideas the most clearly to us non-Europeans as to why a closed European Championship can be appealing to Europeans. I do not agree with those opinions, but I can respect them as the opinions of others who I consider my friends and colleagues in our sport.

Having said that, I also want to say that this very discussion is making me feel a little unwelcome about the prospect of being an American and competing in an Open European competition that is not the World Championship. Is it only the European Championship where (some) Europeans want to exclude foreigners from competing because of a European "feeling"? Please tell me this is the case, because it seems strange to me that you could turn off this feeling like a toggle switch between an Open and a Closed competition. As to the invitations for non-Europeans to still come to a closed European competition, I will tell you that I personally would never attend a competition where I am not allowed to compete. It would make me feel most unwelcome and unwanted, and I would never voluntarily choose to put myself in that position.

I very much hope to meet more European cubers, in Europe, in the near future. I hope this huge disagreement over this issue does not affect those of us who do choose to cross the big pond to come see you guys. That would very greatly sadden me if it did.

Are we all still friends here?
Chris

 

[KJiptner]

The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:

Should we allow Martians to compete at the World Championship?

well if you're serious..i think that world championship would be fair to exclude martians because i assume their genetic makeup is different in some way, because then we aren't all inherently 'the same' anymore as is the case here on earth. if some martian has 3 hands with 10 fingers with an eyeball in the middle of each palm, i don't want a piece of that

1st: Yes, I was beeing somewhat serious.
2nd: good point!