Europe 2008

[shelley]

P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?

Once again proving I way too much free time at work,

Dror Vomberg, Israel, Europe 2004
Jorge Best, Mexico, Dutch Open 2004
Shelley Chang, USA, UK Open 2006
Cho Won-Bang, Korea, UK Open 2006
Jasmine Lee, Australia, UK Open 2006
Dave Litwin, USA, Dutch Open 2007
Brent Morgan, USA, Italian Open 2007
Maria Oey, Indonesia, several
Lee Chieh, Taiwan, UK Open 2007
Lee Kang, Taiwan, UK Open 2007
Jessica Ellison, Australia, UK Open 2007
Monir Amerkhous, Morocco, French Open 2008

This is only after a cursory survey and I probably missed a few.

I think a lot of this "huge fuss" is because Europeans don't really feel European yet.
[...]
Europe is 1 entity is still building and expanding and European Championships help us realize this. Through all these decades, people have had National, European and World Championships in every sport and we like that very much. We also like big international tournaments, global competitions and the Olympics.

Can't we leave the politics out of this? In the grand scheme of things, we're just people who can manipulate a plastic toy really fast. I don't see how the presence of a few non-Europeans at a competition will threaten your identity as citizens of a unified Europe.

 

[jazzthief81]

I honestly don't see what this huge fuss is about. "Destroying" the championship? It's not like an army of American and Asian cubers is planning to go over there and beat everyone because the EC is now open. In fact, many American cubers are students and can't afford a few hundred dollars for a plane ticket to Europe anyway.

This is great news for non European citizens who either are living in Europe or just happen to be in the area when the tournament takes place. Wouldn't you agree that it would be a shame not to let them compete just because of where they were born?

I'm with her. Just cool down and get on with your life. It's almost certain that this is not going to have _any_ effect on how the championship is going to turn out eventually. Afterwards you'll all look back on this and think how silly it was that you got wound up over it in the first place.

Let's not ruin the atmosphere of what promises to be a great tournament.

 

[shelley]

It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends.

No, they would be crashing the party, and I would see why you wouldn't offer them cake. But if you invited them and then didn't let them have cake, that's kind of mean.

 

[rxdeath]

I think a lot of this "huge fuss" is because Europeans don't really feel European yet.

Maybe a small (and not very good) history lesson would explain something?

I am only 31 years old, but when I was young our neighboring country (Germany) was our former enemy (worldwar I and II) that we were starting to trust again. The European Union was only a couple of Western European countries.

A decade later the European Union was basically Western Europe, but Eastern Europe (the other side of the Iron curtain) was still considered a threat.

Another decade later the cold war was over, Germany was united again and the European Union had grown way beyond an economic cooperation.

At this moment (another decade later) the EU has a lot of legislative power, travelling is basically unrestricted, working in other countries is starting to get unrestricted and we have a common currency (not everywhere (yet))

Europe is 1 entity is still building and expanding and European Championships help us realize this. Through all these decades, people have had National, European and World Championships in every sport and we like that very much. We also like big international tournaments, global competitions and the Olympics.

(I am not a historian. Please don't start nitpicking on details)

expectations are irrelevent

No they are not!

in the spirit of this, doesn't it open the very kind of divide you're saying your celebrating overcoming? expectations are irrelevant compared to fairness and equal opportunity. i appreciate the harmony that the EU has attained and is working for, but believe to use it as a reason to block other people from participating in a worldwide club event is a travesty and insults the achievement. this has no impact on whether or not its unfair to discriminate.

 

[rubikaz]

P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?

Once again proving I way too much free time at work,

Dror Vomberg, Israel, Europe 2004
Jorge Best, Mexico, Dutch Open 2004
Shelley Chang, USA, UK Open 2006
Cho Won-Bang, Korea, UK Open 2006
Jasmine Lee, Australia, UK Open 2006
Dave Litwin, USA, Dutch Open 2007
Brent Morgan, USA, Italian Open 2007
Maria Oey, Indonesia, several
Lee Chieh, Taiwan, UK Open 2007
Lee Kang, Taiwan, UK Open 2007
Jessica Ellison, Australia, UK Open 2007
Monir Amerkhous, Morocco, French Open 2008

You have to add at Least Gabriel Eduardo Nuñez, Argentina: Madrid Open 2008 and Barcelona Open 2008


I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...

 

[Inusagi]

I got to say, that I totally agree with Tyson. The only thing you guys that want a close EC have mentioned so far, is that you'll get beat (not directly). There will not be any difference if there are some non Europe people there, then the rank. And who cares about your rank? I mean, if you are saying that you don't care about ranks, then say why you don't want an open.

 

[Erik]

It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends.

No, they would be crashing the party, and I would see why you wouldn't offer them cake. But if you invited them and then didn't let them have cake, that's kind of mean.

I didn't invite them in the first place. They wanted to come in to the party, and since I'm polite I let them in, but I don't give them cake so the guys who were invited in the first place don't get less cake, I give them a cookie.

 

[rxdeath]

I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...

do you have any ideas to back up your opinion, or are you just jumping on the bandwagon with 2 popular euro cubers?

It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends..

i'd just invite all my friends all the time

 

[Erik]

I mostly have 2 different parties. One where my family etc comes and one with friends or whatever.
edit btw.. does it matter in this case how I usually hold my parties?

 

[rubikaz]

I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...

do you have any ideas to back up your opinion, or are you just jumping on the bandwagon with 2 popular euro cubers?

Maybe I have more ideas than you will have in all your life. Do you know me? If not, please, don't speak to me in this way.

 

[Tyson]

I really don't see how his asking if you have any ideas was really as insulting as your response. Merely, you agreed, but you didn't give any reasons for it.

Can you present your line of reasoning?

 

[rxdeath]

you didn't add to the discussion at all you said: 'i agree with blah blah' and didn't provide any reasoning so its fair to assume you didn't really think about it, otherwise you'd have some useful input instead of stating your jumping on someone's bandwagon, if you had an idea, please share it. sorry if my words don't sound pretty, i'm very direct.

erik: you said two different parties for different friends originally, which is what i responded to, but in your new post you say 1 party for friends, which i think is how cubing tourneys should be.

 

[Erik]

erik: you said two different parties for different friends originally, which is what i responded to, but in your new post you say 1 party for friends, which i think is how cubing tourneys should be.

You really frustrate me with this since I think you perfectly understand what I ment (I could be wrong..) ... what if I want to hold seperate parties for different type of people, I only used the term family to show the difference in types of friends and why the parties aren't hold at the same time in one party, I still love them all... and besides, why change the way of how I hold my party...

btw: 'the bandwagon with 2 popular euro cubers' is kinda disrespectfull and this phrase also tries to show things different from what they are. It's not just Edouard and me, there are loads of others who think the same way.

 

[Worms]

thanks for your extremely intelligent post, it really helps contribute to the discussion.

I'm sorry but Doudou, Erik, Jean, Rama, Frederit... are wrong

Everybody knows that europe is this :

Now seriously, that's not logic that non-european people could compete in an european championship...

Thank you very much, I'm very happy that somebody could understand my sarcasm

 

[Karthik]

why change the way of how I hold my party...

It is only your fourth birthday dear.

 

[Erik]

Worms that's not really funny imho, this is a serious discussion...

adding to my previous post:
I also checked among my classmates what they thought and also some adults and they think too that this idea is weird. And before you are going to tell me how many people you know agree with your opinion too, I think that on this discussion the opinion of European people is more important since it's their culture/tradition/usage/but especially continent, which other people are trying to change (and have already accomplished apparently without us knowing)...
I would never dare to go to somewhere see something being done differently (for example eat their breakfast with no fat at all(which is bad)) and tell them to do otherwise.

p.s. at Karthik: I don't understand what you mean sorry..

 

[rxdeath]

an people could compete in an european championship...

Thank you very much, I'm very happy that somebody could understand my sarcasm

if you were implying (someway i didn't understand) that you actually disagree with closed competitions, then i'm sorry i misinterpreted your post.,but its still hardly helpful just as rubikas wasn't helpful either.

erik: since you and doudou are spearheading the effort i said '2' but someone that just says 'i agree' and doesn't give a reason deserves to be questioned.

i didn't understand and family/friends 'party' (although i don't know where we're going with this analogy) makes sense, but different parties for different people is absurd. if you want to have your parties this way great, but you aren't a worldwide organization. (i still think you should invite everyone, but its your party)

to say euro opinions matter more than others is a joke and i won't waste my time explaining (once again) how this is an international organization. euros aren't better than us, as we aren't better than them, all opinions are equal, any other opinion is elitist crap.

you act as though you own the EC and i messed with your property. i didn't, and its not yours, its every cuber in the worlds equally.

 

[Tyson]

You talk about this competition as if you were running it. How much are you involved with the organizational team?

 

[Ewks]

I don't really have an oppinion about weather the comp. should be open or not. But I have to say that I see AvGalen's point in his post on European history, having European Championships in about every sport is a part of our culture and you should respect that. We don't come and insult your cultural differences from us.
Should Europeans just invite others than Europeans to compete for example in European song contest or in our other sport Championships just because those foreing people want us to.
And to rxdeath if you want to be intelligent the first step is to try to respect other peoples oppinions and cultures even if the differ from your's.

 

[Erik]

so if you don't wanna change my party why do you wanna change the way the EC is held? It's still our European championship. We can't vote who is US president either can we (even if he is so powerfull as he is..)?