different memory methods advantages and disadvantages

[pete]

like I said, I cycle "start -> A -> B", so I only need to memorise A and B
if I would use PAO, I'd have always the same person doing different actions to different objects, and I think that's kind of a waste of memory
but I think Chris does that, having the same person interacting with the other images

I think you are a member of blindsolving yahoo group so you may remember
discussion Chris had with John Louis (grand master of memory) and I think
John Louis was of the opinion that same person doing different action to
different objects was an advantage in memorization (not disadvantage).

 

[pete]

oh, ok thanks pete. that clarified a lot. so, each piece in your PAO has a person (like beckam) doing something beckham would do. Does it really have to be relevant (like could it be beckam eating noodles) or does it just help the memo process?

I prepared the list so that the person does something relevant (i.e. Schumacher driving car), you keep this prepared list forever, in your long memory so I think it's better if the action/object is relevant to the person.

then during memorization of scrambled cube you are just following the sequence on the fly so those new PAO images are being created for you just by following the sequence and that's when you get person/action/object unrelated, yet easy to memorize in single image, i.e. "Izzard holding ball" (1>12>8) - that's not related but easy to remember as a single image (picture in your mind).

and since scrambled cube memorization is short memory process then I don't see a problem in those PAOs not being related.

 

[F.P.]

Ok, wait...I will explain now how someone would effectively use the PAO-system (there are no "rules", you can use any system/technique for whatever you want, as long as it works for you - but this is how you would use the PAO system if you want to use all its possibilities and functions).

Since I'm memorising Pi, I will explain it with someone who wants to memorise Pi with the help of the PAO-system.

First I will shortly explain the Master/Major-system which is the basic all of basics.

In the master-system, you have an image for every number from 0 to 99 (or from 0 to 999). Usually you will create images by first giving the numbers from 0-9 certain letters, which fir them (in a logical sense).

So for example 0 is z, c and s - z=zero, c and s have sound similar.

5 is L - roman numeral for 50.

If you want create an image for 50, you will have to use a word/image which starts with L and has z,c or s in it.

Best is, if the other letters are a, e, i, o, u only, because you may confuse it otherwise...sometimes that's not possible though.
You could use "Lassie" as the image for 50.

Now do that for all numbers from 0-99 and you have created your basic major-system.
If you want to use the PAO-system, you have to create 3 images for every number from 0-99.
So, for 50 you already have the "Person" - Lassie. You have to create 2 more images: an action-word/image with L/c/s/z and an object with L/c/s/z.

If you memorise Pi now, you will always have 3x2 digits on a route-point. The first two digits are the person, the second two digits are the action and the last two digits are the object.

Let's say I have to memorise the combination 502639;
Now I will use the "person" image I have fore 50, the action image I have for 26 and the object image for 39.

For memorising the combination 265039 I will use the person image for 26, the action image for 50 and the object image for 39.

For memorising 392650 I will use the person image I have for 39, the action image of 26 and the object image for 50.


It's important that it's always in the same order: first person, then action, then object...otherwise this whole system is pointless.
One of the reasons for creating route-points is to not confuse the order of the images you memorise. If you put more than one image on a routepoint, you need an order-system for the images on a routepoint - in this case it's the PAO-system.




PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).
[/QUOTE]


this is not how I undestand PAO system, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

in my opinion PAO system is for people who do NOT want to prepare a long list of images. if you memorize corners and edges permutation separately from orientation then you only need to have a prepared list of 11 PAO images.
if you solve by sticker (permutation and orientation in one step) then you need to prepare a list of only 22 PAO images (not 430x3)

So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
Now you need 3 images for this combination:
a person, an action and an object.

The PAO-system is for people who want to put 3 images on one routepoint;

if F needs to go to W, that's not even 1 image (not 3 images),
F needs to go W and W needs to go to B, that can be represented as 1 image.

Do you know now what I mean by that?
I have an image for the letter combination FW, if I use the PAO-system, I would have to create 3 images for this combination (or well - every possible combination), since I memorise by letter-combinations.



But as I said...there are no rules - use the system you like and which works best for you.
I never really thought of using the PAO-system for bfd-cubing, but if it works for you - use it the way you want it (modify it).


Greetings, Flo!

 

[ccchips296]

hmm. i see what you mean F.P but as far as i know, the PAO system is made so that its not pair letters but single letters containing a Person action and object. This narrows the amount of images needed to just about 72.

also, for PAO system, what do you do if its a 2 cycle say A=>B? do you just make it a person doing something? how would you remember that in a multi bld attempt or something on a larger scale than just one cube?

also, what advantages does remembering pair lettering have over single lettering if you have to remember much more images? how would you suggest remembering all the different persons actions and objects?

 

[F.P.]

Pedro only uses "PA" - person+action as far as I remember.

Maybe an even number is better than an odd one for cubing (PA vs. PAO ).

When doing multi-bld I think you should have a system for everything...I mean, when doing one cube only, you can say remember the last letter (or whatever) with your short-term memory - that's not really a "safe system" for multi-bld.


The adavantage of memorsing by single-letters is that you don't need to care about an even or odd number of letters.

I'm memorising in pairs and I have only images for the pairs; so if I have an odd number letters to memorise (let's say I need to memorise 7 letters...that makes 3 pairs and one letter) I have to create an image for this one letter during the memorisation-time.
I don't know if that really works when doing 10 or more cubes multi-bld.

For one cube it's no problem of course.


And as for "learning" your images: learn them by using them.
Don't sit down and learn your list...just do solves the whole time, and check your list if you can't remember an image.

 

[ccchips296]

i see.... well, thanks for all of this advice everyone. i figure im gonna work with a PA system and see how that works. ive bookmarked this thread its so helpful thanks all. (please continue discussing here if it helps) the more advice, the merrier.

btw, if you know you have a flipped edge at the end of a cycle, how would you memorise than if you are doing many cubes? just visually memo it or something?

 

[Pedro]

hmm... thanks pedro for all these detailed explanations practice makes perfect ... how long did it take you to learn all of the images for your stickers and stuff? how did you learn it? did you kind of just write it all down and study it or try to do it over and over again with the cube in your hand?

well, it took sometime to create the list, so when I finished it was almost all "attached" to my mind
I used the piece colors to define the persons (I did this just for edges at first, was using CO, CP for multi, but I don't anymore)
but some were hard, so I just put the characters there on the pieces missing

I'd say it takes waaaaay less time than to memorise a 506 image list (which I'm preparing as I already said)

hmm ok...what happens when doing edges and you have to remember to flip a couple of edge pieces at the end? do u just remember it visually or numbers or do you do something special to your images to remember it?

well, that's a good question sometimes I forget to flip them but Tim gave an advice (not specifically for me, but I use it)...you can make the flipped piece image burn or freeze

like, if I have to orient blue/red, I'd "see" Superman burning for some reason

not 100% efficient by now, but I guess it will get better

 

[Mike Hughey]

Single letters. (fool)

I really am curious whether your parenthetical statement is actually true or not. If Tim's method really is inferior, it's frightening to think what he could do with letter pairs!!! Maybe we'd see 50/50 in 2 1/2 hours?

(Hey, why not - 50 cubes in 2 1/2 hours is just 3 minutes per cube...)

 

[ccchips296]

wait, pedro how do you use colours to memo edges? dont you use freestyle so you're memo'ing stickers? what would be the different from say a UF and an FU p) sticker? wouldnt it be easier to base the images on letters (like ive seen many people do). also, you said you dont memo CO, CP anymore. What do you do? cause ive seen you still do that in your videos.

yeah, im experimenting with freestyle edges now and while my accuracy isnt great, i do feel it helps my execution times a lot. the problem is im not used to checking for flipped edges so much remembering stickers visually is ALOT harder than pieces.

 

[tim]

Single letters. (fool)

lol .

50 cubes in 2:30h? That's easy, but not for me. Maybe you should ask some really good guys (Ben Pridmore, Dr. Gunther Karsten, ... (endless list)) to try that.

 

[Pedro]

I think you are a member of blindsolving yahoo group so you may remember
discussion Chris had with John Louis (grand master of memory) and I think
John Louis was of the opinion that same person doing different action to
different objects was an advantage in memorization (not disadvantage).

yeah, I'm a member there...but I don't remember this particular discussion...

I didn't say memorising that is bad or a disadvantage

I just think it's not really necessary

I just memorise the starting point for the first part of that cycle. So, when UF gets solved and there are other edges to solve, I get the next unsolved one (following the order as in Macky's tutorial) and start a new cycle.

so I get the person for that sticker and for the next 2 pieces (which form the cycle) I get the actions, having one person doing 2 actions

this may not be the best way, but...

wait, pedro how do you use colours to memo edges? dont you use freestyle so you're memo'ing stickers? what would be the different from say a UF and an FU p) sticker? wouldnt it be easier to base the images on letters (like ive seen many people do). also, you said you dont memo CO, CP anymore. What do you do? cause ive seen you still do that in your videos.

yeah, im experimenting with freestyle edges now and while my accuracy isnt great, i do feel it helps my execution times a lot. the problem is im not used to checking for flipped edges so much remembering stickers visually is ALOT harder than pieces.

well, I used the edge colors to "create" my PA system
so, for the orange/blue edge, I tried to get some person/character which is orange and blue (more orange than blue). That one was Goku, from Dragon Ball Z, with his predominant orange suit

but, as I said, for some of them I couldn't find a good "link", so I just got some random persons to complete the list

you can do it any way you want, as long as you know which person represents each sticker

on multi, I'm doing freestyle corners
I use commutators and/or setups into A perms, when it's easy

I just have another PA set for the corner stickers (which I initially developed for 4x4 centers) and do the same thing


for one cube I still do CO, CP and memorise all with rote memory

 

[ccchips296]

hmm, yeah i looked at freestyle corners and want to get in to it but i dont understand it. is it the same concept as free edges how you set up the stickers? cause often its kinda hard to get them all facing the same way since they have 3 orientations and the set up moves would take a while. where do you get your commutators from? are there any guides or tutorials on free corners? could you do a couple example solves (for corners) by any chance (like the ones you did for edges)? that would be greatly appreciated

 

[Pedro]

well, I got the commutators from Chris thread

it's somewhere in the bld section here

sure I can do examples

wanna give me the scrambles or I get them myself?

 

[cmhardw]

If someone posts a scramble I'll write up the solve for corners using BH method. I don't think freestyle and BH corners are that different though to be honest, except for maybe some of the harder cases (as in the optimal alg is 10-12 moves HTM).

Chris

 

[pete]

scramble #25 from last week's multiBLD competition would be fine ?

B2 F' D' B2 F D U2 F' L2 U' B F2 L B2 L B' L2 R2 B F2 L R2 U' R' D2

 

[Pedro]

ok, let me do it before Chris comes and makes a much better solution

I start from UBL

so, UBL - FDL - RUF
F' R (A perm) R' F

UBL - UBR - LDB
[U', R D' R']

UBL - UFL and DFR - DBR
R2 E perm R2

flip the corners

 

[cmhardw]

B2 F' D' B2 F D U2 F' L2 U' B F2 L B2 L B' L2 R2 B F2 L R2 U' R' D2

BH corners:

UBL->DFL->RUF
case name: orthogonals
alg: F' U L' D2 L U' L' D2 L F

UBL->URB->LBD
case name: drop and catch
alg: L' D' L U' L' D L U

UBL->ULF->DBR (breaking into a new cycle)
case name: direct insert
alg: B2 L F L' B2 L F' L'

UBL->FDR->RDB
case name: toss-up
alg: R U2 R' D' R U2 R' D

When breaking into a new cycle I specifically chose DBR because it made for an easy optimal 8 mover commutator for the next cycle. Daniel has all the corner commutators posted somewhere for BH, but we're still working on the literature for our method. This solve was particularly easy though, to be honest. No hard cycles at all, except for the "orthogonals" case which is optimal at 10 moves, but even then it's still fast.

Chris

 

[ccchips296]

hmm... i see. thanks chris and pedro im probably gonna stick to CO CP for a while till i get used to free corners though when i do learn these "free" corners, ill probably just stick to setups with A perms and learn a couple commutators from chris' thread for the harder cases. thank all!

 

[martijn_cube]

@ pedro: i'm trying to find a good memo system. and your system looks very promising, so i want to try it a bit. but one question: i solve stickers so i need 22. but if i take lets say UB(yellow-red) and BU(red-yellow), what kind of advice can you give me on creating pictures for it. should i create kind off the same picture for them, somehow related or something(because its the same piece) or should i just look at them as totally different pieces?

i will choose between this PAO or ''22 total/ nr 1-10+A-L'' this give me pairs like 1L AE 5B 79 3 etc.

 

[Pedro]

I have different pictures for each sticker, and I think it helps avoiding confusions

if you have similar images for the stickers on a piece, you might get yourself in trouble, not knowing exactly which sticker you had