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different memory methods advantages and disadvantages

ccchips296

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hey, ive been looking in to learning a memory system and from what ive read from this forum (and yes, ive searched alot) the main methods are PAO, journey methods, roman rooms and use of images (loci). while i have gotten the gist (or is it spelt jist? :p) of it, i would like to get some more detail in to the advantages and disadvantages of each method and whether they are better suited to M2 or cycling/freesyle.

currently, i am using 3OP for one cube and want to do multi bld and big cube bld later. however, i can to an extend do freestyle edges, M2 and pochman corners although they are a bit slower (i am willing to adapt those methods).

also, from what i have heard, PAO systems only require the learning of 72 images and do not need to letter every sticker on the cube. this is a lot less images that what ive heard from pair images put in to a journey which require lettering of stickers and 522 (i think) images altogether. im not particularly sure on journey methods and roman rooms and how to practically put them in to cubing. if possible, could anyone give a list of images or words etc they use for each system so that i can use it as a reference (or possibly use it for myself ;))

thx in advance, Chris Chan :)

Side note: If it helps or is just out of curiosity, i average from 2:30-4min with visual memory and 3OP.
 

cmhardw

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Hi Chris,

For 3x3x3 I use single syllable words, and just remember the sounds of the phrases I get. Each sticker has a letter, and I have a pre-prepared word for every letter combination. I personally still use a mix of images in a journey location (for edges) and single syllable words (for corners) on 3x3, but I'm currently expanding my single syllable word list into two - one with nouns and one with verbs. This way I can use a PA (person-action) list to memorize the 3x3x3 using only words.

Purely visual memorization is good if you have a strong natural memory. I personally feel I do not, and so it takes a huge amount of effort to memorize visually and still get under 2 minutes for a 3x3x3 BLD solve. There are others who can memorize visually in under 30 seconds though, so it depends on you.

I only have experience with letter pair lists, and placing either images into a journey or remember the sounds of the words I make. If you would like to see a letter pair word list or image list, I list both of my lists on my site at http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/memorizing.html

To answer your question, the pros of the images and journeys method are that it helps you remember a lot of information (read bigger cubes blindfolded) without a lot of effort during the solve. The cons are that you have to learn a large word or image list before you can even start using the method. You also have to practice and review your image/word lists to make sure you don't forget any. Also you have to constantly update images with better ones if you find you are always forgetting one of your images when it comes up during a solve.

I personally wouldn't use anything else other than either letter pair images or letter pair words, but I consider myself someone with only an average natural memorization ability. I've just found that without a system to help me memorize better I have trouble trying to memorize visually and be able to even get a solve under 2 minutes on 3x3. With my memory systems I can get solves under 2 minutes with relatively little effort compared to visual memorization.

Just my two cents on the memory method question,
Chris
 

F.P.

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Hi,

first I want to clear a few things up:

Actually you only listed one method.

Journeys, Roman rooms and the loci-technique are basically all the same.
It's all about having a certain route on which you will place your images.

The route can be your way to school/work or your room or just anything else.
I recently made a short vid for this/a tutorial even though it's more of an introduction but it should help you understanding the method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkkLN6_x8Mc

I don't know what people told you, but for using the Person-Action-Object-technique the way it's supposed to be, you will have to create way more images than with the other techniques.

And actually the PAO-system belongs to the loci/roman rooms/journey-technique as well, since you will have to put the images on route-points...so, the PAO-System and the loci-technique aren't too different techniques.
The PAO-system is just a way to use the loci-technique.


Let's say you want to memorise sticker by sticker (as I do with the pochmann-method), than you would have to create at least 3 images for every letter-combination.
I have one image for every letter-combination...should be about 480 images (I'm still in the process of creating this list)...so, if you want to use the PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).


So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
Now you need 3 images for this combination:
a person, an action and an object.

The PAO-system is for people who want to put 3 images on one routepoint; and that's not necessary for bfd-cubing at all.
Normally one would use the PAO-system in order to memorise a really long number or a lot of objects/whatever.

Since if you want to memorise a number of 3000 digits, you would need 1500 routepoints using the normal master system (don't know if you are familiar with that, but basically you have images for the numbers from 0-99, so 1 image=2 numbers).

If you use the PAO-system, you can put 3 images on a routepoint=6 numbers on a routepoint. So, your routes don't need to be that long...it's efficient there. But not for bfd-cubing.



I wouldn't really suggest you to use the PAO-system for bfd-cubing at all...



If you have any questions - just ask. ;)

If there are some requests/enough questions I would also do some better mnemo-techniques- tutorials.
 

Pedro

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Let's say you want to memorise sticker by sticker (as I do with the pochmann-method), than you would have to create at least 3 images for every letter-combination.
I have one image for every letter-combination...should be about 480 images (I'm still in the process of creating this list)...so, if you want to use the PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).


So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
Now you need 3 images for this combination:
a person, an action and an object.
not necessarily...you can have a person, action and objetct for each sticker and associate 3 of them into an image

but I don't think it's that effective on bld cubing, since you often need to memorise in pair...

so, what I do is person-action

I have a person and its action for each sticker, and I memorise like this:

start -> A -> B
(I don't memorise my starting point, only if it's not UF...so, if it's UL or UB or whatever, I get the person doing the next 2 actions)

that would be person A doing action B
and I place that in one of my locations inside my roman rooms (I intend to place 2 images in each location, but I'm not sure yet)

and so on,

suppose the cycle:

start A B C D E F

I'd memorise
person A doing action B, first location
person C doing action D, second location
person E doing action F, third location

Tim Habermaas uses this too, except he uses "outside" journeys instead of rooms...and he has done 24 cubes :D


I'm working on a letter pair list too
it's 506 images (23*22), since I don't really memorise my usual starting position
I have like 200 or so by now...
 

F.P.

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Yeah, but as I said - that's not really PAO anymore and I just wanted to point out that this system is mainly for people who want to remember a huge amount of things (usually for a long time).
 

F.P.

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well, I would rather call yours PA. ;)

And just to repeat:
Normally PAO is used in order to be able to put more than one image on a routepoint, so you don't have to create too long routes/don't waste routepoints.
And the number of routepoints isn't really a problem in bfd-cubing; that's all I want to say. :)


Still, there are a lot of different techniques/ways to use the locitechnique; everyone has to find the one which fits him/her best.
Also using others lists isn't really that good.

I mean, you can put like everything on routepoints...and as far as I can think of, for bfd-cubing you can only choose between visual memory and the loci-technique (if you want to be effective).
And for multi-bfd I can't think of anything else than loci anyway.
 

Pedro

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well, I would rather call yours PA. ;)

And just to repeat:
Normally PAO is used in order to be able to put more than one image on a routepoint, so you don't have to create too long routes/don't waste routepoints.
And the number of routepoints isn't really a problem in bfd-cubing; that's all I want to say. :)


Still, there are a lot of different techniques/ways to use the locitechnique; everyone has to find the one which fits him/her best.
Also using others lists isn't really that good.

I mean, you can put like everything on routepoints...and as far as I can think of, for bfd-cubing you can only choose between visual memory and the loci-technique (if you want to be effective).
And for multi-bfd I can't think of anything else than loci anyway.
oh, I know that :) that's why I said I use a "person-action system" ;)
 

Jude

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suppose the cycle:

start A B C D E F

I'd memorise
person A doing action B, first location
person C doing action D, second location
person E doing action F, third location
I just started BLD cubing and was having trouble with visual memorisation, so I created a little system that requires way less images. It's just like the one Pedro said (PAO without the O) except for the Cycle A B C D E F, I'd have person A doing action B to person C in place 1, Person D doing action E to person F in place 2, etc. That way you only need to memorise 4 images for edges which would reduce memo time :) And, for each peice, instead of having 2 different people (one for each sticker), I have just one Person and memorise him (on the green/orange edge for example) wearing either a distinctive green or a distinctive orange outfit. /Chukk
 

ccchips296

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ok im back :p after leaving this thread to develop, i would like to thank chris ;), um... mr. F.P and pedro and chukk for their input.

for chris (hardwick), the purpose of me learning a memo system is so that i can do multi and big cube bld. even after learninng a system, i intend to use visual for one cube only because i feel it is faster and i have "relatively" good natural memo.

To F.P, yes, i kind of realised loci and journey and rooms were kinda the same but i just needed to fill space :p... for your first post, i assumed that PAO meant that each STICKER and not pair sticker had a person action and object meaning that there was only 72 images since there are 24stickers and 3 images for each (24x3=72). also, from what i have learnt from your video (yes, i had seen it before) you use pair letters to make images only you dont use set images and instead make it up on the spot. if im not mistaken, if you have to make set images for each pair, it comes up to 522 (i think) images. Which is alot! it also seems to me that this becomes better suited for M2 because you have to memo in pairs (and pair letters) making it easy to see whether you are right or wrong centers.

to pedro, so, your saying that PAO isnt too effective because you have to memorise in pairs? i thought you used 3 cycle? (with freestyle edges) wouldnt it only help to memorise in pairs for M2? also, you said "i have a person and its action for each sticker", do u mean it like that the person owns the action and that it is set like that? or that the person and action are seperate depending on whether you are on the P or A part but they mean the same sticker? also (yes there are a lot of also's :p) you said "I intend to place 2 images in each location, but I'm not sure yet". dont you already do multi bld? what do you do currently for it? also (last one for you i promise ;)) could you, if possible,provide a list as to what person/actions you use for your stickers? that would be greatly appreciated :)

chukk, i see what you mean for the people but is it really that beneficial? wouldnt it be easier and more fool-proof to simply remember the extra images?

thanks all! and yes, Mr. F.P, your conversations have helped :) (so keep em coming :p)
 

ccchips296

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oh yeah, i forgot. i dont REALLY fully understand the journey part of the memo where you place the images. could someone get more in to that? is it just as simple as Mr. F.P said in his video about remembering the images in places in your house? or is it different for a PA system. also, F.P mentioned that you should have 3 or 4 different routes. what if you are doing like 20 cubes? does that mean you have 20 different routes? if you where doing a roman room thing like Pedro, would you also need one room per cube?
 
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Pedro

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well, to answer some of your questions :)

what I mean is that each sticker has a person/character and the action for that stickers is that person's action

so, for blue/red, I have Superman and the action "flying" (superman's action)
for red/yellow, I have Michael Jordan and the action "playing basketball"

so, yeah, the actions are related to the person/character

I use either the person or the action depending on the position of the piece in the cycle


what I said about PAO is that you encode 3 pieces into one image, so it's not that effective

like I said, I cycle "start -> A -> B", so I only need to memorise A and B
if I would use PAO, I'd have always the same person doing different actions to different objects, and I think that's kind of a waste of memory :p
but I think Chris does that, having the same person interacting with the other images


about placing 2 images into one location...
currently I place just one into each location, so that's one cycle per location
but that's for edges
for corners, I usually have 2 images (representing two cycles) in each location

I have 8 locations in each of my rooms, and memorise each cube in one room

I use 2 locations for corners and 6 for edges, so I need to put more than one image in each location for the corners

I currently have 10 rooms, but I'm working on getting more, so I can practice more cubes :D
I'm using 6 of them for multi and 3 for the 4x4, so it's not that good, as I end up using the same rooms for the same purpose every time...once I have more rooms, I'll maybe practice more :)
 

ccchips296

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hmm... thanks pedro for all these detailed explanations :D practice makes perfect :)... how long did it take you to learn all of the images for your stickers and stuff? how did you learn it? did you kind of just write it all down and study it or try to do it over and over again with the cube in your hand?
 

ccchips296

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also, does tim habermaas use pair letter images like chris so theres like 500 and something or does he use single letter for each sticker like pedro?
 

F.P.

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[...]I'd have person A doing action B to person C in place 1, Person D doing action E to person F in place 2, etc. That way you only need to memorise 4 images for edges which would reduce memo time :) And, for each peice, instead of having 2 different people (one for each sticker), I have just one Person and memorise him (on the green/orange edge for example) wearing either a distinctive green or a distinctive orange outfit. /Chukk

Well, basically you have three images in one image. You have two persons and one action in each image. ;)
Though, I know what you mean.

Isn't it confusing for you to remember just one person wearing a certain colour(ed)-shirt?

Since you said you just started with bld-cubing , I doubt that you already tried multi-bld, but my guess is that you will have problems with this system when you are trying more than one cube.
One person/and the sticker indicated by the shirt this person wears is too easy to confuse in my opinion.
But maybe it will work for you anyway...everyone is different. ;)

It's nice that you made up your own little system! :)
 

ccchips296

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hmm ok...what happens when doing edges and you have to remember to flip a couple of edge pieces at the end? do u just remember it visually or numbers or do you do something special to your images to remember it?
 

pete

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...so, if you want to use the PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).

this is not how I undestand PAO system, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

in my opinion PAO system is for people who do NOT want to prepare a long list of images. if you memorize corners and edges permutation separately from orientation then you only need to have a prepared list of 11 PAO images.
if you solve by sticker (permutation and orientation in one step) then you need to prepare a list of only 22 PAO images (not 430x3)


So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
Now you need 3 images for this combination:
a person, an action and an object.

The PAO-system is for people who want to put 3 images on one routepoint;

if F needs to go to W, that's not even 1 image (not 3 images),
F needs to go W and W needs to go to B, that can be represented as 1 image.

and on one route point I typically place just 1 PAO image (one such image contains information about 3 different pieces or stickers)

I'm not going to bore you with my list of 11 PAO images (I solve piece by piece, not sticker by sticker so I need only 11 PAO images) but lets say on my
prepared list each Edge on solved cube is represented by PAO,
i.e. Edge #1 (or you can call it "I") my PAO = Izzard talking to Vader
(you use only PAO that makes sense to you, something you are familiar with,
if you don't know who Eddie Izzard is and why would he be talking to Darth Vader then use something else),
my PAO for Edge #8 (or "B") = Beckham kicking ball
my PAO for Edge #11 (or "N") = Norris fighting ninja
my PAO for Edge #12 (or "R") = Rambo holding gun

similarily for edges 3,4,5,6,7,9,10 I have prepared list of PAOs (I don't use PAO for Edge #2, that's my buffer)

so now lets say on scrambled cube I need to memorize sequence 11>8>1 (N>B>I) then my image to memorize is : Norris kicking Vader (that is just 1 image I need to memorize, I have to imagine how Chuck Norris is kicking Darth Vader and place this image in 1 location of my route).

to memorize 12 edges you only need 4 images.

if I was doing sticker by sticker, it's still only 4 images for all 12 edges,
the only difference being I have to prepare a list of 22 PAO images instead of 11.

cheers
Pete
 

ccchips296

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oh, ok thanks pete. :) that clarified a lot. so, each piece in your PAO has a person (like beckam) doing something beckham would do. Does it really have to be relevant (like could it be beckam eating noodles) or does it just help the memo process?
 
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