• Welcome to SpeedSolving.com — the world’s largest puzzle community!

    You’re currently browsing as a guest, which means you have limited access to discussions, resources, member profiles, and community features.

    Join 50,000+ cubers and puzzle enthusiasts from around the world to ask questions, share solves, improve faster, and be part of the community.

    Registration is free, fast, and easy — create your account today.

    Already a member? Log in here to hide this message and start participating.

Big Cube BLD Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I memorize the central edges first and solve them last, so they're actually my longest-term memory of all. I even do this on 7x7x7, so it's often 40 minutes to an hour between memorizing and solving them!

Wow, I didn't realize that you memo'd and solved in that order for central edges! Are you using an ABCD memo and DCBA solving, palindromic I guess?
Yes, I do that with almost everything. For multi, I solve the cubes in the reverse order of memorization. (Even for relays, and 7x7x7 multi.) And for the central edges, it makes it particularly nice, because all the centers are already solved, so I can use almost all the same algorithms that I use for 3x3x3, even though I do a lot of optimized ones. The only place where I have to be careful on bigger cubes with centrals is parity - there are a few cases where I can mess up centers if I do them the same as on 3x3x3. But they're easy to catch.

Also, Mike I consider you the King of BLD, as your craziness and dedication to it I think are not closely matched by very many people.
Chris Hardwick just said that about me!?!?! My life is complete. :D :) :)
 
This thread needs a bump.

Here are some 4x4 BLD example solves: (I probably wouldn't solve wings or corners exactly like this, yet :p)

Example solve #1:

Scramble: B' R' f r2 B R' F' u R2 f' U2 R u' F B' L r u2 B' u2 F D' u L2 r' B' L u f D' f' R2 u B f2 r' R2 L2 B f2
Orientation: z2 y'

Centers:
Ubr->Dfr->Flu: (U' l' U) r2 (U' l U) r2

Swap buffer to Ufl

Ufl->Rfu->Bru: x' (l' U l) d' (l' U' l) d x
Ufl->Fdl->Drb: x l (U' r U) l' (U' r' U) x'
Ufl->Lbu->Fru: L2 d (r U' r') d' (r U r') L2
Ufl->Bul->Lfu: x' F' d (r U' r') d' (r U r') F x
Ufl->Rdf->Ldb: y d2 (r' U r) d2 (r' U' r) y'
Ufl->Bld->Dbl: y2 x B2 u2 (l U l') u2 (l U' l') B2 x' y2

Ufl<->Lfd: y' r U l' U' r' U l U' y
Ubr<->Dlf: U' l2 U r2 U' l2 U r2

Wings:
DFr->LDb->BUl: U' L2 U' r U L2 U' r' U2
DFr->LUf->RBd: U' r U' R' U r' U R U2
DFr->DLf->LBu: B' U' L2 U r2 U' L2 U r2 B
DFr->DRb->FDl: l' U' R2 U' r2 U R2 U' r2 U2 l
DFr->URf->FUr: x U R' U' r U R U' r' x'
DFr->BRu->FLu: R' U' r2 U' L' U r2 U' L U2 R
DFr->BLd->RUb: L y U' L2 U r U' L2 U r' y' L'
DFr->FRd->RDf: R U' r2 B' R2 B r2 B' R2 B U R'
DFr->DBl->UBr: l B' R B U R2 U' r2 U R2 U' B' R' B r2 l'
DFr->LFd->UBr: B L2 B' r2 B L2 B' r2
DFr->RFu->BDr: r2 U' R U r' U' R' U r'
DFr->ULb->RFu: R y U' L2 U r U' L2 U r' y' R'

Corners:
UBR->FRD->FUR: y D R' D' L D R D' L' y'
UBR->UFL->LDB: R D' R' U2 R D R' U2
UBR->DLF->FLU: x F R2 F' L F R2 F' L' x'
UBR->ULB->DBR: D2 L2 D R2 D' L2 D R2 D
UBR->LBU->URF: x' R' D' R U' R' D R U

Parity:
R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U R U R' F'
y Uw2 Rw2 U2 r2 U2 Rw2 Uw2
Memo:
Centers: AJ VT BQ PR FO UM LH (visual memo for 2swaps) => probably something like "AJ is seeing the vet; someone is barbequeing a pear; a giant (FI FO FO FUM) is eating Leah"
Wings: MF OX IP QB SC TJ LW RU HE NE VG KV => "Uwe Meffert riding an Ox; IP-cops quibbling about something; scientists are fighting TJ; lawyer is solving with Roux; He-Man hurts his knee; *not gonna say this*"
Corners: RC DM IJ KQ P => "Rice damn injured koq p"

Example solve #2:

Scramble: F B' D2 u2 R u' B' F2 R' u f D2 U' R D' U2 r2 f2 F' D2 f L' B' r2 U2 r2 B' D B' R' F' L D2 R' f' r' B' u U' R'
Orientation: x' y2

Centers:
Ubl->Fur->Dfr: x U' l U r U' l' U r' x'
Ubl->Rfu->Lbu: y l' U' l u2 l' U l u2 y'
Ubl->Bru->Ldb: x' u' l' U2 l u l' U2 l x
Ubl->Fdl->Rdf: y d l' U2 l d' l' U2 l y'
Ubl->Dlf->Rbd: yx d2 l' U l d2 l' U' l x'y'

Ubl<->Bdr: x' U' l' U r U' l U r' x
Ufl<->Frd: U' r U l' U' r' U l
Urf<->Dbl: U l2 U' r2 U l2 U' r2

Wings:
DFr->FDl->BUl: U2 l' U2 r2 B' R B U R2 U' r2 U R2 U' B' R' B U2 l U2
DFr->DRb->ULb: U2 R2 U' r2 U R2 U' r2 U'
DFr->UBr->RFu: r2 B' R2 B r2 B' R2 B
DFr->URf->LUf: y' U R2 U' r U R2 U' r' y
DFr->LFd->FUr: U L' U' r U L U' r'
DFr->RUb->FLu: L' y r U' L2 U r' U' L2 U y' L
DFr->FRd->BDr: x z' R U2 R' u' R U2 R' u z x'
DFr->BRd->DBl: B2 U R' U' r2 U R U' r2 B2
DFr->RDf->LBu: R2 U r U L U' r' U L' U2 R2
DFr->LDb->BRu: R' L2 y' r U R2 U' r' U R2 U' y L2 R
DFr->UFl->DLf: U2 r2 U' L2 U r2 U' L2 U'

Corners:
UBR->FDL->DFR: z L2 U' L2 U L2 D2 L2 U' L2 U L2 D2 z'
UBR->RFU->DRB: z' R' F U2 F' R F R' U2 R F' z
UBR->BLD->LUF: F R' D2 R U R' D2 R U' F'
UBR & ULB: y (RUR'U')*2 L' (URU'R')*2 L

Parity:
D' L' F l' U2 l' U2 x U2 l' U2 x' r U2 r' U2 l2 F' L D
Hopefully there are no errors.
 
Last edited:
Hey everyone,

I've been thinking about why I DNF 5x5 BLD so much recently, and I think I know a big part of it. I am not correctly applying setup turns, as well as the undoing of the setup turns. I often find that when I need to do a double turn setup turn that I do a quarter turn only, or vice versa. Also, sometimes I do the setup turn, and then when I am supposed to undo it I actually reapply the same setup turn rather than undoing it.

I know that practice will fix this, but I am trying to figure a way to make this portion of the solve more accurate. I find that I don't ever really seem to mess up the 9 mover, or 11 mover, cases as they are chunks of theory in my head. I fully understand how the setup moves cancel and apply to the core 8 move alg. However, the 10 move algs that are just straight setup, then 8 mover, then undo the setup seem to be the cause of my DNFs recently.

Has anyone else noticed a similar trend in their solves? Just trying to bring this up as a friendly discussion in case others are experiencing the same thing.

Chris
 
I think the best way to avoid this problem is to visualize the pieces you want to cycle in your head, and then to visualize the places you want the pieces to be for the 8-mover in your head.

Then you will easily see not only the correct setup move needed, but also how to undo the setup move. I think this will clear things up a lot. Maybe it will even speed up your solves because you won't have to remember which setup move you did; you can just visualize the setup and the undo apart from each other!
 
I think the best way to avoid this problem is to visualize the pieces you want to cycle in your head, and then to visualize the places you want the pieces to be for the 8-mover in your head.

Hey Maarten,

Thanks for the advice, and I will definitely try this on my next few solves. I guess I will try to take a "snapshot" of where the pieces start. Then imagine the core 8 move alg I need to use to execute them, and take a "snapshot" of that as well. I'll try to post how it goes after trying it a couple times. It only seems to be the 10 move cases from what I've seen. 9, 11, and 12 movers just don't seem to bother me, only 10 movers.

Chris
 
Could anybody give me a rough idea of how long it might take me to learn to do a 4x4x4 blindfolded? It took me about 5 days to figure out my method for 3x3x3 and my first success was my 5th. I now average around 8 minutes.

I know it's hard to judge this when you don't even know me, but a rough estimate and maybe some advice would be nice!
 
Could anybody give me a rough idea of how long it might take me to learn to do a 4x4x4 blindfolded? It took me about 5 days to figure out my method for 3x3x3 and my first success was my 5th. I now average around 8 minutes.

I know it's hard to judge this when you don't even know me, but a rough estimate and maybe some advice would be nice!

Think of 444 BLD as 3 individual steps that include their own distinct methods for being solved. IF you want to be able to solve a 444 BLD you need to have basic understanding of many of the 3BLD methods.

The steps are as following:

Centres: Solved with commutators
Edges: Solved with r2
Corners: Solved like Old Pochman corners or even better BH commutators

In each of the steps you need to watch out for afew problems that might arise, and know how to tackle them. This includes parity in all the steps.

To even begin to grasp 4BLD, learn abit about 3BLD using commutators for corners and M2 for edges :)
 
Could anybody give me a rough idea of how long it might take me to learn to do a 4x4x4 blindfolded? It took me about 5 days to figure out my method for 3x3x3 and my first success was my 5th. I now average around 8 minutes.

I know it's hard to judge this when you don't even know me, but a rough estimate and maybe some advice would be nice!

One general rule of thumb for big cubes blindfolded as well: the more prep-work you do beforehand, the easier each individual solve will be. This mostly applies to your memory methods. You can just memorize each solve visually by tapping the pieces and remembering the shapes that they trace out. If you have a strong natural memory then this method works just fine. If you're memory is not naturally as strong, you can spend some time beforehand prepping a structured memory method and this will help make each individual solve easier to do.

You can, for the most part, expand your usual 3x3x3 BLD method to fit the 4x4x4. Start off by telling us which 3x3x3 method you use for both corners and edges. We can start you off from there.

Chris
 
You can, for the most part, expand your usual 3x3x3 BLD method to fit the 4x4x4. Start off by telling us which 3x3x3 method you use for both corners and edges. We can start you off from there.

Chris

I figured out my method on my own for 3x3, but I've been told it is old pochmann: I orientate the edges and corners, then solve the corners 1 at a time while swapping two edges each time, then solve the edges 1 at a time while swapping two corners each time.

I'd like to figure out my own method for 4x4 too (I got into cubing because of the challenge of figuring stuff out, not for speed), and I am sure I can do the centres and corners. The only thing troubling me is how to go about the edges. Some tips would be nice (what order to do stuff or something), but please don't tell me exactly what to do; that takes the fun out of it ;)!

Thanks MrMoney and Chris!
 
You can, for the most part, expand your usual 3x3x3 BLD method to fit the 4x4x4. Start off by telling us which 3x3x3 method you use for both corners and edges. We can start you off from there.

Chris

I figured out my method on my own for 3x3, but I've been told it is old pochmann: I orientate the edges and corners, then solve the corners 1 at a time while swapping two edges each time, then solve the edges 1 at a time while swapping two corners each time.

I'd like to figure out my own method for 4x4 too (I got into cubing because of the challenge of figuring stuff out, not for speed), and I am sure I can do the centres and corners. The only thing troubling me is how to go about the edges. Some tips would be nice (what order to do stuff or something), but please don't tell me exactly what to do; that takes the fun out of it ;)!

Thanks MrMoney and Chris!

Okay. I have to say this, whether it is helpful to this discussion or not. You DO NOT need to orient pieces when using Old Pochmann. It is a huge waste of time and incorporates the weaknesses of both Old Pochmann and 3OP.

If you are planning to learn 4x4 BLD, I would recommend that you learn how to use M2 for edges in 3BLD, because r2 is pretty much the exact same thing and is a VERY easy way to solve edges on a 4x4.
 
4x4 BLD execution example:

Making examples looks like fun, I might do it sometime in the distant future.

This is an example 4x4 BLD solve hence the title, there are a lot of moves that could be made more finger trick friendly, but to make it simpler I've left out some rotations I would normally use.

My memo is quite bad, so don't expect a memo demo.

Scramble: (Scramble in the orientation you would normally solve in)
D Uw' U' Rw' Fw' F2 U R2 Fw' F L Rw Fw' F D2 Uw U' F' L R U' Rw' Fw2 Uw' Fw R B2 Fw R D2 Rw' B2 Uw U Rw' U' L2 B' D' L'

Orientation:
z' y2

Corners: (BH) (These corners are center friendly so can be done first thing) The brackets are just breaking up the commutators.
URB > DFL > UFL: (R') D R' F2 R D' R' D F2 D' (R2)
URB > BDR > BLU: (L2) D2 L' U2 L D2 L' U2 (L')
URB > DFR > UFR: y' (D2) L2 D R2 D' L2 D R2 (D) y
URB > LBD > RFU: (F2) L' F' R2 F L F' R2 (F')

Centers: (Commutators)
There's quite a bit of moves that can be eliminated by simply solving a different center but I find it can help solving centers in blocks.

Ubr > Bru > Fdl: [F] u2 (l' U' l) u2 (l' U l) [F']
Ubr > Lfu > Fdr: [F'] y' (r U r') u (r U' r') u' y [F]
Ubr > Dbr > Lfd: [D'] y' (l F2 l') b2 [l F2 l') b2 y [D]
Ubr is solved, buffer is now Ufr:
Ufr > Dfl > Bdl: (r B2 r') f2 (r B2 r') f2
Ufr > Rdb > Bdr: [B'] y (r U' r') d' (r U r') d y'
Ufr > Rdf > Dfr: [D] y (r F2 r') f2 (r F2 r') f2 y' [D']
Ufr > Rfu > Blu: [R] y (r U2 r') u (r U2 r') u' y' [R']

Wings: (r2)
There are some cancelations that can be made here, but I've left them out.

1) DFr > DBr: r2 F R U R' d R U' R' d' F'
2) DFr > ULf: B L' B' r2 B L B'
3) DFr > UBl: B' R B U R2 U' r2 U R2 U' B' R' B
4) DFr > ULb: L U' L' U r2 U' L U L'
The buffer is solved, a new cycle can be quickly made via shooting to UBr:
5) DFr > UBr: r2
6) DFr > FRu: B' R2 B r2 B' R2 B
7) DFr > UFr: F d R U R' d' R U' R' F' r2
8) DFr > URb: B' R B r2 B' R' B
9) DFr > FLd: B L2 B' r2 B L2 B'
10) DFr > FRd: U R U' r2 U R' U'
11) DFr > DRf: B' R' B r2 B' R B
12) DFr > DBl: (l) B' R B U R2 U' r2 U R2 U' B' R' B (l')
13) DFr > DFl: (l2) B' R B U R2 U' r2 U R2 U' B' R' B (l2)
14) DFr > UFl: (l') B' R B U R2 U' r2 U R2 U' B' R' B (l)
15) DFr > FLu: U' L' U r2 U' L U
16) DFr > DLf: U' L2 U r2 U' L2 U
17) DFr > BRu: U R' U' r2 U R U'
18) DFr > BRd: R B' R' B r2 B' R B R'
19) DFr > UBr: r2
Again, we must start a new cycle of wings. For this example I will be shooting to URf:
20) DFr > URf: R' U R U' r2 U R' U' R
21) DFr > BLu: L' B L B' r2 B L' B' L
22) DFr > DLb: B L B' r2 B L' B'
23) DFr > URf: R' U R U' r2 U R' U' R
A new cycle must be made, there are only 2 pieces that need to be swapped, in this example I will shoot to DRb:
24) DFr > DRb: U R2 U' r2 U R2 U'
25) DFr > BLd: U' L U r2 U' L' U
26) DFr > DRb: U R2 U' r2 U R2 U'

Conclusion:
There are 26 edge targets. 26 = even = no parity.
Coincidently there have been zero parity issues on this solve, if the edges were odd, the parity alg is as follows:
r2 D' L' F l' U2 l' U2 F2 l' F2 r U2 r' U2 l2 F' L D
 
Last edited:
The centers that make a plus cross are "+ centers"
The centers that make and x cross are "x centers" (so 4x4 has x-centers)
The central edges can be called "centrals" (the normal edges that are on a 3x3)
The out edges are "wings" (the edges on a 4x4)

And about my question I'm reffering to just orienting the cube to get lots of centers solved (like one would do with the 4x4), and then from there switch the central most centers. I might have it wrong and I don't be planning on doing this anytime soon, just curious.
 
I did re-orienting on my first real 5bld attempt but it took ages to find a good one that wasn't parity, so I just don't reorient now. But that's me, and as we know I haven't gotten many 5bld solves... :P
 
Hmm, yeah I was wondering, do the top 5x5BLDers reorient?

I know that Mike and I both do. I think Mats does as well, and I don't know about Spef, Chester, Tim Sun, aronpm, or the others.

And about my question I'm reffering to just orienting the cube to get lots of centers solved (like one would do with the 4x4), and then from there switch the central most centers. I might have it wrong and I don't be planning on doing this anytime soon, just curious.

Considering the central centers to be pieces, there are 24 different ways that they can be permuted. Half of these cases are "parity" cases, or better said half of the cases are odd permutations of the centers. The half that are even permutations of the centers (i.e. no parity) can be solved with 4 move commutators.

I only re-orient to the even parity cases, as I don't know a quick or efficient center parity alg (which will necessarily have to change the parity of central edges as well).

The way I recognize is to split the unsolved cases into two groups. The first group I consider to be the "three cycles" and the second group the "double swaps", the third group is the solved case alone or no reorienting.

There are 8 "three cycle" cases, and they are the following:
U -> F -> R (and so also D -> B -> L)
U -> F -> L (also D -> B -> R)
U -> R -> F (D -> L -> B)
U -> R -> B (D -> L -> F)
U -> B -> R (D -> F -> L)
U -> B -> L (D -> F -> R)
U -> L -> F (D -> R -> B)
U -> L -> B (D -> R -> F)

To solve a three cycle case I only use M and E turns. I must bring the U center down to either the F or B face via the M layer. But before doing that, I must move the face it is supposed to go to onto either the F or B face with an E layer turn. The way I know which face to turn the E layer to, is to turn it to the one that is the other piece in the cycle.

For example let's do the case: U -> R -> B (D -> L -> F)
To me this case is only U -> R -> B, and I never pay attention to the 3 cycle on the other side of the cube.
I know that the U center must move to the R face, but I have to bring the U center down to either F or B only. I know that I need to bring it down to the B face, because B is the other location in the three cycle.

So first I must move the R center to the B face by doing the turn E. Now I bring the U center down to the B face by doing M'. Lastly I just undo in the proper order to make this a commutator, so then follow with E' M

This makes that case E M' E' M

Every other case is done in a similar way.

The "double swap" cases could also be called the "double turn" cases. There are 3 of these. They make one of the M, E, or S slices appear to be a double turn away from solved. To solve this you use a strategy very similar to a half slice-plane for 3x3x3 BH edges. Let's look at the case:
(U <-> D) and (F <-> B)

This is basically the centralmost centers being an M2 away from solved. To solve this I swap the F and B centers on the E slice by doing E2. Then I bring the U and D centers into the E layer by doing M. Interchange the U and D centers (now on the F and B faces) by doing E2. Then undo my M layer turn with M'.

The whole commutator is E2 M E2 M'

The same idea for the other two double swap, or "double turn," cases.

Chris
 
Last edited:
I did re-orienting on my first real 5bld attempt but it took ages to find a good one that wasn't parity, so I just don't reorient now. But that's me, and as we know I haven't gotten many 5bld solves... :P
I don't reorient either. I solve centers by first putting all +- and x-centers of the same color on the same face whichever it is, and then swapping whole centers (excluding the centermost piece) at once.
The advantage is taht I get to choose between 720 possibilities for solvong centers instead of just 24, without veven the parity issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top