Proposal: Add Gender Sorting on the WCA Rankings

[ryanj92]

I feel like the title of this thread should be changed/discussion moved to a new thread...
The growing consensus seems to be that having a 'sort' filter on the WCA rankings page would be useful, but the rankings are not to be used officially (ie rank 1 for a gender does not imply NR/CR/WR for that gender, but as before the fastest time/average from anybody in that region has that title), which is not what the thread title states

 

[rowan]

Is there any research that can back this up? I'm asking because you have access to more literature about the subject than I do. Personally, I never feel the need to compete with other men.

Research to back what up? That both men and women would have access to the gender sorting? That seems pretty obvious. The phenomena I was talking about called stereotype threat only exists in groups that are marginalized or a minority, so it wouldn't be observed in men, if that was what you were referencing.

 

[vcuber13]

Then you think wrong.
It's definitely stupid and groundless that females think so, but more than a few are deterred by a majority of men. That's what it is like outside the cubing world and I don't know a reason why it should be different. At a competition last year I was literally asked by someone if I could give his daughter some motivation since she was afraid to compete with all the boys...

What was she afraid of, and how did you motivate her? If this was at a competition, she obviously had the motivation and was not afraid to show up.

 

[rowan]

What was she afraid of, and how did you motivate her? If this was at a competition, she obviously had the motivation and was not afraid to show up.

Why do you feel the need to question women's experiences? Clearly her father was there with her, so maybe he encouraged her. Or maybe it would have been better for her to stay home so she can "prove" that she's intimidated by being in a mostly male setting, is that the better alternative? Then she wouldn't be a WCA member and her opinion wouldn't matter, right?

If someone is scared to give a speech in class, and they show up, does that mean they are lying about being scared?

Also I agree that we should change the name of the thread, it's misleading for people who are just reading it.

 

[Ollie]

Research to back what up? That both men and women would have access to the gender sorting? That seems pretty obvious. The phenomena I was talking about called stereotype threat only exists in groups that are marginalized or a minority, so it wouldn't be observed in men, if that was what you were referencing.

I'm starting to think he's trolling now, or is digging a hole. He can't back anything he says up, has resorted to name-calling (which strips away any credibility) and I for the live of me, can't find his WCA ID which suggests he's never been to a comp which makes his point about being a WCA member to have an opinion lollable

edit: found it, but still, see first 2 points

 

[BaMiao]

Thank you rowan, for revitalizing this thread. You handle yourself in writing very well despite the awful arguments you are forced to address.

In my time in the community, the gender disparity I've seen has worried me quite a bit. There's disagreement surrounding the cause of it, but that is of minor importance. What is important is that we are sure that we are doing our best to create an environment that welcomes girls just as much as boys.

I can only imagine what it is like for a girl just making her way into this community. Most of the cubers she meets in real life and online will probably be boys. The top wca rankings are almost all boys. The thought would invariably turn to whether or not she would really be welcome.

I especially want to stress that cubing is thought of in society as an "intellectual" activity. They say, "you can solve that? Are you a genius or something?" We should be especially wary of any message (intentional or not) that suggests that girls should not participate. A gender ranking would run counter to any such message, and it is only effective if has a good level of exposure.

 

[vcuber13]

Why do you feel the need to question women's experiences?

Because that is what this thread is now about.

 

[rowan]

Because that is what this thread is now about.

God forbid. Stop implying women are lying about how intimidating such a male-dominated sport is and start listening to them.

I don't think there's any point to me responding to your posts anymore. It's shameful to question people's experiences when it's probably already hard for them to talk about it because of how much of a minority they are.

 

[vcuber13]

God forbid. Stop implying women are lying about how intimidating such a male-dominated sport is and start listening to them.

You realize that by me asking a question to further understand the situation is me trying to listen to a women's experience, right? When did I imply a women was lying about the intimidation?

 

[rowan]

You realize that by me asking a question to further understand the situation is me trying to listen to a women's experience, right? When did I imply a women was lying about the intimidation?

You said if she was afraid she wouldn't have gone to the competition. That's implying that she's lying about being afraid or that larf is lying about the experience.

 

[Daniel Wu]

Throwing my opinion in here since this thread is back. Having a filter to display results by gender would be fine. Having an official male WR/CR/NR and an official female WR/CR/NR is not fine. Females are just as capable as males and there is no reason to award records for slower times because of gender.

 

[Endgame]

resorted to name-calling

I was just quoting you

 

[vcuber13]

You said if she was afraid she wouldn't have gone to the competition. That's implying that she's lying about being afraid or that larf is lying about the experience.

You misunderstood me then, I meant she had the motivation to practice at home, and to go to the competition. But not enough to compete without other encouragement. If she was very afraid / intimidated, she likely would not have went to the competition.
For example, you are not likely afraid to go to an amusement park, but you may be afraid to go on the big roller coaster.

 

[rowan]

You misunderstood me then, I meant she had the motivation to practice at home, and to go to the competition. But not enough to compete without other encouragement. If she was very afraid / intimidated, she likely would not have went to the competition.
For example, you are not likely afraid to go to an amusement park, but you may be afraid to go on the big roller coaster.

You simply reworded your first comment. If your aim is to listen to female cubers, I think you are completely missing the mark. Women here are saying they would appreciate the stats and you continually argue against them. You don't know what it's like to be a female cuber so I would stop trying to theorize about what it feels like if I were you. You've already said you don't think representation for female cubers in a male-dominated sport is important, so I have no desire to continue engaging with you as you've missed the entire point I was making. Whether or not you can recognize that representation is important to women doesn't change the fact that it is, as quite a few handful of women here have expressed that and PM'ed me to say so.

 

[jeff081692]

Yea but if there are some girls that can make it to a competition and still get intimidated then there are likely girls that practice at home and truly don't go to competitions for this reason because every video of a competition is filled with men competing.

 

[XTowncuber]

Throwing my opinion in here since this thread is back. Having a filter to display results by gender would be fine. Having an official male WR/CR/NR and an official female WR/CR/NR is not fine. Females are just as capable as males and there is no reason to award records for slower times because of gender.

This is perfectly stated.

 

[AmazingCuber]

Thank you so much rowan for bringing this up. You have some very good points and I think that just adding stats separated by gender on the WCA page is not a big deal, but can be very beneficial for females. I don't get why so many people are arguing so hard against this, one really wonders in what age one is living in . . .

 

[Ninja Storm]

This is perfectly stated.

Agreed. I think that seems to be what most people are looking for. Having something on the Statistics page would be interesting and wouldn't devalue the current records.

 

[TMOY]

Having something on the Statistics page would be interesting and wouldn't devalue the current records.

The list of male/female NR/CR/WRs would be a bit too long to fit on the Statistics page, IMHO a dedicated section on the Misc page would be more appropriate. Apart from that I agree too.

 

[Lucas Garron]

This doesn't technically fall under the Regulations, but I've made a GitHub issue to track this topic.