How do top-cubers lookahead?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bundat

Regular
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
179
Do the top cubers use lookahead the same way it is usually described?

I read that other bumped thread about "limits", where they say that 5 tps should have been the limit during F2L for decent lookahead.

However, watching Feliks, he's usually done with F2L at the 4 second mark. And sometimes even faster, which almost looks like its impossible to lookahead with.

Which makes me want to ask cubers at that speed, do you actually have to "look for pairs" while "solving other pairs" (i.e. classic definition of lookahead), or do you manage to find all 4 pairs during inspection/cross, and always have some general idea as to where they are (and possibly their orientation, how they would connect or get affected by your current alg, etc)? Thus "lookahead" would only be casual glances just reconfirming orientations, pieces being in your expected places, and whatnot?

Because when I solve VERY slow, I can sometimes find such cases familiar (e.g. I have a pair here, and a pair there, and I can tell that if I solve pair A first, pair B will end up in a bad position, or if I solve pair B first, pair A will be easier to solve, or will also be automagically connected too, etc)... but ONLY when solving very very slowly, and I usually miss such cases when I am not tracking that specific pair.

Although I tried tracking all pairs at once, but all I got was a massive headache after a few solves, and I just kept forgetting where the pieces are and losing track of plenty others. Should I stick with doing this? Is keeping track of all 4 pairs doable, or rather, is it even necessary to achieve such results?

I remember reading somewhere that to practice lookahead, you can start by looking for a corner, then tracking that while you look for the corresponding edge. But this usually ended up for me with bad cases (watching for corners with edges trapped somewhere else, or miss out on another easier pair because I was tracking a harder corner etc). Only thing I can think of to keep from making such errors is to be aware of all pairs...
Also, what happened to the speedcubing world?

Last time I was around here, the times of the Yu/Erik rivalry, sub20 was decent, sub15 was super pro, and anything below 12-13 was world class. And Robert Yau was being considered possibly as a hacker because people didn't believe his 5 second keyboard solve was possible.

Now everyone and their mom is sub15, and it sounds from the posts that you're decent by forum standards only when you are in the sub10 league o_O. And top cubers get 4-5 second solves in videos like peanuts. And sub20 is just laughable and should not even be mentioned in conversation. Actually, it seems sub20 is gonna be the new thing for BLD based on a video I've seen. o_O

How did all that happen?? lol
 
I've heard top cubers mention that they try to keep an intuitive feeling at all times of whether the F2L edges (and/or LL edges) are "good" or "bad", referring to whether they are oriented for RUL solving or not I believe. Good cubers will change how they insert a pair if it makes some of the F2L edges change from "bad" to "good".

I don't know much more than that. I don't claim to be any expert at all on this topic, but I did find the edge thing interesting. I will be following this thread with a lot of interest! I hope some of the top cubers respond!

I also wonder what happened to the speedcubing community as far as the times you mention. I find it thrilling to see how the times keep decreasing at such an incredible, dizzying rate! I don't like the general overall feeling I get that it's not that uncommon for people to call solves that are truly world class "good" and anything slower than that is "crap". That really gets on my nerves, but I suppose it is an inevitable part of any community where competition is involved.
 
Do the top cubers use lookahead the same way it is usually described?

Although I tried tracking all pairs at once, but all I got was a massive headache after a few solves, and I just kept forgetting where the pieces are and losing track of plenty others. Should I stick with doing this? Is keeping track of all 4 pairs doable, or rather, is it even necessary to achieve such results?

I'm almost certain that NO cuber tracks all four pairs. I try to keep an idea of where trapped edges & corners can be removed with different inserts/pairing moves, but if I closed my eyes, I wouldn't be able to identify each pair of pieces.
I'm not THAT fast, but I think most of the top cubers use the same lookahead style as me:

1. Find pair to solve
2. Before/as you are solving the current pair, find the next best pair
3. Repeat

I suppose that you are trying to take into account most pairs, and mentally rating them to decide which one to solve next, but I wouldn't classify that as tracking
 
From my humble opinion, i'll try to solve your questions:

1st: Figure out the whole F2L is practically impossible. Instead , my goal is always to find at least one pair, and if there's another one that looks indeed REALLY easy then i would try and keep it up.

2nd: While solving, and having finished the first pair, it's time to rely on your look ahead. To me, look ahead means the ability to recognize and execute cases with no stop, as though the whole solve was an entire algorithm(check out my 7.65 average video and you'll see what i'm talking about) . Having done thousands and thousands of solves, you unconciously "learn" how a pair will look like after being changed or altered by the execution of the previous one. And this applies to X-cross patterns. This is why practice is the key to sub10/9/8 status.



Hope this helps you!
 
I see edge orientation and where the peice will end up, but I don't "track" pairs, I just notice them as I am working on the other pair and take note of them, still allowing me to turn fast instead of having to slow down. I haven't yet been able to find my first pair in inspection 100% of the time but I am working on it. I think top cubers use the technique I have described but on a whole nother level.

How much slow solving have the fast people done? (I hope someone fast answers)

Feliks says that he does more slow solves then timed ones, but in the comment section on one of his dads videos of him his father said he used to do mostly fast. I assume he does mostly slow though.
 
Last edited:
I think Feliks said once in a video somewhere that he will practice tracking two pairs at a time. So normally we would see a pair and practice by closing our eyes and solving that pair. Now try seeing two pairs then close your eyes and solve both of them. Repeat for pair #3 and #4.
 
Gilles Roux is not an experienced cuber? I'm afraid I don't follow.

No, he is not super fast but is very experienced.

I think Feliks said once in a video somewhere that he will practice tracking two pairs at a time. So normally we would see a pair and practice by closing our eyes and solving that pair. Now try seeing two pairs then close your eyes and solve both of them. Repeat for pair #3 and #4.
I am able to this pretty easily, but actually doing this in a speedsolve is impossible for me. Recognition and look ahead has to be fantastic to do this in a speedsolve. Cyoubx talked about this in one of his videos and he called it "2 look F2L".
 
Last edited:
When I force myself to going slow, my brain is trying hard but my habit doesn't allow that, it faster automatically and I can't control that.
I think the core of look-ahead is to win your habit.
 
I just saw Brest's reconstruction of 5BLD's Danish challenge, and I saw his 2nd block was faster than 9 (!) tps. That's not even an alg step (ala CMLL/OLL/PLL), that's an intuitive step requiring lookahead, but I don't think I'd even see anything at 9+ tps except a blur lol.

Looking at other reconstructions by Brest, it seems it's quite often he hits 9+tps on the second block.

The only thing that makes sense (to me) is that he looked-ahead far enough during the first block that he knew the entire second block already at the end of it... unless his visual acuity has been trained (by his cubing) to be able to see at that speed (like in that show "Liar Game", where there was a boxer who could follow a card during a shuffle due to his enhanced visual acuity).

But it makes sense though to think he looked ahead that far instead (feel free to correct me if not lol). It coincides with Dario's reply of "foreseeing the next case", and Feliks' supposed 2-look F2L (basically the same thing).

Instead of tracking pieces e.g. tracking a corner piece when doing corner bias, or even tracking both pieces, maybe they can actually foresee what the next case/alg they need (in case of CFOP) before they are done with the current pair, or EVEN before they have started the CURRENT pair (hence, "true lookAHEAD" [look WAAaaY ahead], and not just "tracking").

And it seems the standard of "pair prediction" for top cubers is at least 2 pairs (plus an edge for the 2nd block if Rouxing).

The top chess players supposedly can see a LOT of moves ahead, for several move options. Unexpectedly, it seems what makes a top cuber is how far ahead you can see as well... i.e. how many cases/mini-algs/pairs/blocks you can predict in advance.

And as Dario said, there's also xcross cases to predict, and then there's L6E for Roux (which many become SO fluent with they even have tricks with it).

Of course, this is just my conclusion based on the above, I'm not at that level so I might be completely wrong. Feel free to correct me.


-----

Just a random thought on the "best method"
From this, I wonder, could the method with the GREATEST potential be the one with the least "alg" steps and the most intuitive steps (or purely intuitive if it is possible to keep the movecount 40-60)?

Because it seems top cubers can do intuitive steps seamlessly at insane speeds.

But it seems that when you come to LL alg/case recognition, SOMETIMES* even the best pause enough to matter (assuming Brest's TPS for Alex's CMLL includes the case recog), since his TPS for CMLL in many solves was only 4-7.

Also, Feliks' 4.79 unofficial, his F2L is almost 10 (!) TPS, but his LL is only almost 6.

OLL, PLL, CMLL... probably too many stickers to look at, not enough "correlation between pieces" to "naturally predict"?
And intuitive > algs for speed? If that's true, it's totally unexpected.
And I used to think ZB would be the key to breaking the WR even further.

(*I say sometimes because this is not always the case. e.g. in Alex's 5.11, his CMLL is 11.11 (!!) tps)
@Chris:
On that other topic, I have a couple of theories...

Maybe its the cubes. The old DIYs back in those days can't even compare to the "modern" cubes i.e. Zhanchis, Guhongs, Fangshi, and Weilongs.

I could barely rarely sub-2 T-perm in the past, but now, my zhanchi felt so fast I managed to do a sub-1 after drilling it for like a week. Of course, maybe it's also because I'm aware that it's possible since there exist people who can sub-1 all PLLs, so that made me try extra hard. :p

I broke out my old DIY, tried to go that fast, and it either just locked, or popped bad.

Then, my other theory is the psychological aspect of it, i.e. knowing that what felt impossible was actually possible. Like the sub-1 PLLs (which everyone used to think was doable on MU EPLLs only).

Another example is CN CFOP. Back when Robert Yau first appeared, he was full CN at (then) world-class speeds, and it was totally unbelievable. It was like an unbelievable skill. Then Faz came along, many copied him being CN, and it became common enough to look easy. Which made me actually try. I am now full CN, faster than I was before (and I only started CN training when I posted this thread).

Faz broke insane barriers repeatedly, everyone realized global sub-10 and sub-8 full step was doable, and tried extra hard to catch up.
-----
It's nice having stats on solves.
Brest = best
 
Last edited:
...Also, Feliks' 4.79 unofficial, his F2L is almost 10 (!) TPS, but his LL is only almost 6.
...-----
It's nice having stats on solves.
Brest = best

Quite a few interesting observations in there. LL is "slow" because it can contain awkward moves, but 6 moves TPS might be influence more by recognition/skip/shock/reaching-for-the-timer than by actual turning.

having these kinds of stats on solves IS really great
 
Yeah, recog and skip also probably played a part in Mats' 5.55 3x3x3 WR
F2L is almost 10 TPS too, but PLL is only below 7 TPS, despite being a simple CCW EPLL.
Probably due to the OLL skip.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top