[WCA Regulations 2012] Remove +2 penalty for misaligned sides

more stuff

Firstly, let's separate the two problems which you have confounded. The first is the "meta" problem, which goes something along the lines of "ocrap I better slow down and be more careful at the end of my solve to ensure I don't stop the timer until it is completely solved, or else the dire consequences of a DNF will destroy my average, unlike a +2 which is all good". The second is the "place the cube or drop it?" problem. I've said all this before, but I'll say it again now for the new people to the conversation:

My response to the "meta" problem is essentially "screw it". If the current "elite" are affected by worrying about a DNF, then they'll have to suffer the consequences and a new breed of cubers will come through that won't be affected by it, and will be able to achieve optimum times regardless.

On a side note, personally I do not think many cubers would be affected by changing +2 to DNF except in circumstances where they already have a DNF (or doing mean of 3, but seriously, solve the damn 6x6 before you stop the timer, you've already had almost 2 minutes to get it right). But if they are affected, other cubers that aren't will be able to reap the rewards of not DNFing. Tough luck, grow a pair.

As for the "place it or drop it?" problem, the response is simple: if you wish to take the risk to get a slightly better time, go ahead, but the WCA is not going to cuddle you while you cry in a corner if your cube "accidentally" makes a turn as a result of that risk. It's not about banning risk taking, it's about having a solved cube when the timer is stopped. How the cuber goes about achieving that is entirely up to them, and if they wish to risk a DNF by throwing their cube across the room in the process of stopping the timer, that's the risk they take.
 
Last edited:
So what about trivially solvable positions? We can all agree that a cube off by one move is trivially solvable, and I think a very strong case could be put forward for two moves off being trivially solvable, and maybe even three moves. If the cube was left unfinished by one or two moves deliberately, should there be any penalty at all?

EDIT: I should point out, I'm not criticising you at all, so don't read me like that. I'm just trying to flesh out your exact position, and the implications of it. I'm still not exactly certain where you lie in this issue, so I guess other people would be unsure too. It's important to understand, so people can make an informed decision on whether or not they would be prepared to advocate or defend your position, or whether it can be rejected, etc.
 
Last edited:
Finishes PLL, performs U3, stops timer. So if +2 is removed that would count as a solve? The cube was solved before the timer was stopped.
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?34096-WCA-Regulations-2012-Remove-2-penalty-for-misaligned-sides&p=686701&viewfull=1#post686701
Several big posts of mine that haven't really gotten any response. For all the emotion of those defending this rule, there's little in the way of reasoned arguments.
If we had a way to time only the turning portion of a solve, self-timing cubes, would you consider it acceptable to do a U4 after PLL and claim the cube solved, regardless of the final state?
Way back in the day at a Caltech competition, there was a guy solving BLD (Darren Kwong? Not sure.) who finished his cube then sat there, tracing corner cycles with his fingers. We all held our breath until he did an extra corner cycle then stopped the timer with a DNF. Should he have gotten a valid time? He obviously could solve BLD, he just overthought it.

I learned a new word recently, nocebo. The talk of "meta" is effectively this. Some people are so convinced that a rule change will be damaging, they're basically holding their results hostage. If the rules change, they will be sure to get worse results and prove everyone wrong. This is not something the rules should be concerned with.

GuangzhouSCUT results: There were 28 unsolved cubes judged +2, 3.1% of the 900 non-BLD non-magic solves at the competition. Of these, however, 12 were already the slowest solve of the average. That is, changing the result from "close enough" to DNF would have had no impact on the average result. A further 10 would have given a small increase in the average result. Only 6 of the 180 averages recorded at the competition, or 3.3%, would have changed from a valid average to DNF.

I wish more competition organizers could record these sort of results.

Unless anyone thinks that two seconds are trivial, then no one solves expecting to not complete the cube (feet solving aside). Were the above competition held with a rule change judging all unsolved cubes as DNF, competitors could participate with no change in their solving approach and only have a small chance of their results changing from what we see now. Again, competitors could compete with no change in "meta" of whatever sort and the possible impact would be small.
 
Last edited:
EDIT: I should point out, I'm not criticising you at all, so don't read me like that. I'm just trying to flesh out your exact position, and the implications of it. I'm still not exactly certain where you lie in this issue, so I guess other people would be unsure too. It's important to understand, so people can make an informed decision on whether or not they would be prepared to advocate or defend your position, or whether it can be rejected, etc.

I don't actually mind saying goodbye to the +2. After reading most of this thread I am almost convinced that it could and should be removed. I certainly don't think 2 and 3 moves off should count.

I should add that I never foresee a future where my 'ideal' timing could be implicated either. I just like the idea of it.
 
Last edited:
I suggested the idea of a poll to this thread earlier on to see where people lie on this argument, an idea which was waved away. Waved away by the people FOR changing the rule. The +2 rule is accepted by the community. So why change it? We should only change the rule if the majority of people are for changing it. And the only way to find the majority group is through a poll. If the poll is again waved away, then we have no way of seeing who is for what and then, the argument is pointless. I doubt that the arguments in this thread will change the opinions of the people, so the sooner we add a poll, the sooner we can sort out this argument.
 
IT MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE IT'S WHAT YOU EXPECT
Hopefully someone will provide numbers for other competitions, either supporting my assertion or providing an alternate thought on how this all works.

ThomasJE said:
I suggested the idea of a poll to this thread earlier on to see where people lie on this argument, an idea which was waved away. Waved away by the people FOR changing the rule. The +2 rule is accepted by the community. So why change it? We should only change the rule if the majority of people are for changing it. And the only way to find the majority group is through a poll. If the poll is again waved away, then we have no way of seeing who is for what and then, the argument is pointless. I doubt that the arguments in this thread will change the opinions of the people, so the sooner we add a poll, the sooner we can sort out this argument.
First, the rules don't need to follow what the supposed majority of the community wants. The change in inspection procedure and thus inspection time was criticized by some very vocal people (using much the same arguments as those seen in this thread). The change was still made, despite the opposition. People adapted, and no one was really bothered in the end.
Second, this forum is in no way representative of the community. I've seen pretty good support for removing this rule among the Chinese community, on the grounds that it would make competitions "more professional".
 
Last edited:
I don't actually mind saying goodbye to the +2. After reading most of this thread I am almost convinced that it could and should be removed. I certainly don't think 2 and 3 moves off should count.

Gee wizz, that certainly is a radical position to hold. What justification do you have for allowing cubes off by U2 to count as solved with no penalty?
 
What justification do you have for allowing cubes off by U2 to count as solved with no penalty?

Where did you get that impression? I don't mind if the cube is scrambled on the table if it has passed through it's solved state which we don't have the facilities to deal with.
 
Dene: Yes, I did end up combining those two issues, my apologies for that. I do agree that such the meta game might only be affected if the competitor already had a dnf, and that it might not be affected if they did not. I know that when it comes to me, if I've got a clean slate I don't care too much about penalties happening, but once I get one, nerves are much worse.
 
cool. then your explanation is poor.
I can live with that. Since I'm not afraid of the proposed change, all I can do is consider how I would look at it if I were, and what argument might influence me. If that's not good enough for someone else, little I can do.

I've written a lot in this thread that hasn't gotten much response, if any. Since the thread's quite long, rather than ask people to go back and look for my posts, I'll repeat some of my questions here.

In multiBLD, how is it that 20 cubes each off by one turn is better than 21 cubes with 20 solved and one off by two moves?

If we had a way to time only the turning portion of a solve, self-timing cubes, would you consider it acceptable to do a U4 after PLL and claim the cube solved, regardless of the final state?

A cuber gets to PLL, with a clockwise U. They accidentally do a counter-clockwise U and DNF. A friend was filming, and has a very good view with high definition video. Can this cuber petition the board for the solve to count, saying that they "obviously know how to solve"? How about, in the video the counter-clockwise U takes exactly one second. With the 4:1 ratio previously mentioned, could they petition for the solve to count with a four second penalty? Despite the absurdity of this case, it still uses the same logic that someone else used to justify +2. "They obviously know how to solve it." Is there a problem with the logic? If no, why is one acceptable and the other not? If yes, then that logic can't be used to justify +2.

New records are a measure of the success of speedcubing as a sport/hobby? Another unrelated sports analogy, but do you think it was a bad idea for swimming to ban the LZR suit?

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/shooting/news/story?id=1864883
Now of course cubing isn't like other sports. But this is interesting. Emmons didn't run a race and stop half way. He made a slight mistake at the very end because he was nervous. He simply turned (himself) slightly the wrong way. There was no question that he could do it. There was no question of his intent. Does anyone feel that he should have gotten partial points for the shot? He would have a silver medal if so.

Back in the days of Ryan Heise's BLD contest, there was a guy going by the name "chi chu" who dominated. He was averaging sub 60 when the world record was 1:28. His first WCA competition, when an average solve for him would have easily been WR, he was so nervous his hands were visibly shaking and he couldn't perform algorithms. Got about two minutes. Where was his safety net?

What's being brought up aren't points against the change itself, but rather statements that change will make some people unhappy. That's not something we can change, nor something that we should weigh too heavily. Some people were unhappy about adding 6x6 and 7x7. (Those that always get stuck scrambling.) Does that mean we shouldn't have added the events?

For the argument that sloppy turning is the result of a timing procedure which is wholly outside the solving process, what of the cuber that in a rush to finish their solve smashes the timer so hard they knock the battery loose? In a rush to finish their solve accidentally hits the reset button?
 
Where did you get that impression? I don't mind if the cube is scrambled on the table if it has passed through it's solved state which we don't have the facilities to deal with.

Oh ok. When you said "I don't mind removing +2, but being off by 2 or 3 moves is not acceptable" I thought you meant remove +2 for being one move off, and having no penalty.

It's an interesting case that you seem to advocate then. Certainly our technologies won't in the near future be able to time in this manner so it isn't an issue at all, but if it comes to it, what would the WCA do? I mean, would the intentions of the cuber be taken into consideration? As in, did they intend to go past the solved state to get it to solved, or did they just make a random turn and happen to go past that state?

A debate for another day :cool:
 
Where did you get that impression? I don't mind if the cube is scrambled on the table if it has passed through it's solved state which we don't have the facilities to deal with.

10b)Only the resting state of a puzzle is considered, when the timer has stopped.

Not sure how that is NOT dealing with that problem?

(I have no real arguments in this, I just know that the day +2 turns into DNF I will never ever have a non-DNF pyra avg :3 )
 
I've written a lot in this thread that hasn't gotten much response, if any.

Probably because most of your point seem to be arbitrary, very subjective and in no way more valuable then the counter-argument "But it's clear that it is almost solved."


This thread is actually really annoying. You and Dene are stuck with arguing against arguments against a change instead of finding overwhelming arguments for a change.

As long as there are no arguments for changing the penalty to DNF that are more valuable than I think a move away is not solved and should be DNF! I don't see why a change should be even considered.
 
This thread is actually really annoying. You and Dene are stuck with arguing against arguments against a change instead of finding overwhelming arguments for a change.

Agreed.

As long as there are no arguments for changing the penalty to DNF that are more valuable than I think a move away is not solved and should be DNF! I don't see why a change should be even considered.

Agreed. Again.

Seriously though, why are we thinking of changing a rule that will then hinder us rather than help us. Virtually every speedcuber has been affected and taken advantage of this rule. So why should we change it?
 
Probably because most of your point seem to be arbitrary, very subjective and in no way more valuable then the counter-argument "But it's clear that it is almost solved."

This thread is actually really annoying. You and Dene are stuck with arguing against arguments against a change instead of finding overwhelming arguments for a change.

As long as there are no arguments for changing the penalty to DNF that are more valuable than I think a move away is not solved and should be DNF! I don't see why a change should be even considered.
Arguments in favor of removing the rule:
Simplify the regulations. This is a big one. For someone that has only been to, say, Southern California competitions they may not understand, but hosting competitions in a new area, spreading cubing to new communities, one of the biggest hurdles is training judges. Some have said that the regulations are already simple enough, but that just isn't true. People regularly complain about bad judges. Adding a category between "solved" and "unsolved" makes the work of a new judge harder. Everything that we can do that makes judging simpler while still maintaining fairness helps to increase the number of competitions that are held and spread cubing to more people. "More competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions". The proposed rule change adds to the first three of those.
Create consistency across the speedsolving events. Clock doesn't have an unsolved but close enough state. The proposed rule change would make all speedsolving events consistent in this regard. Another alternative is to define a penalty state for clock, but no one has suggested a good one. Given that the solve state can't be observed without influencing the puzzle, I don't think it's possible to define a penalty state for clock. (The paper inserts for the clocks can move slightly. How do you determine if the puzzle is half way between 11 and 12, or just that the inserts moved? Hard to do without dissecting the puzzle.) Another suggestion was that consistency isn't worthwhile, that we shouldn't bother with this. I don't think that's a very strong argument. Consistency is easily attainable, I think we can work toward it.
Remove weird cases from the rules. I already mentioned multiBLD, 20 cubes each off by one turn versus 21 cubes with 20 solved and one off by two turns. One person made ten times as many mistakes as the other, and yet we consider him to have performed better.
Make competitions appear more professional. The two comments I hear most often from non-cubers observing competitions are "Why does he get to look at it first? That's cheating!" and "That wasn't solved!". Counting unsolved cubes as solved makes cubing look bad in the eyes of the general public. That, in itself, isn't necessarily a problem. However, that can still have an impact. Making cubing appear more professional might make finding sponsorship easier. Asian Championship 2010 and World Championship 2011, we were very lucky to have the help of the Baiyoke Hotel. I can imagine a scenario where the president of Baiyoke was initially interested, but then saw an unsolved cube and asked why it was counted, and ended up choosing not to offer sponsorship. I can't see the opposite being the case. Increasing the standing of cubing in the eye of the general public would also allow more people to become interested in cubing and join the community.

You complain that not enough has been done to show why a change would be beneficial. Here are four arguments in favor of changing the rule. Among these, only the point about consistency has been addressed by people against a change, though I feel that argument fell short. These arguments haven't been significantly rebutted, yet more are needed? What are the arguments that show the benefit of keeping the rule change, rather than appeal to tradition and talk of hurt feelings? The only argument I can think of is Stefan's point that it might cause some people to argue more about rulings. Unfortunately, probably true.

You state "But it's clear that it is almost solved." Almost solved is, inherently, unsolved. Can you explain why a cube that is unsolevd should count as solved? Do you think that the competitor has shown their intent to solve? In that case, could you address the Olympic shooting thing I mentioned? Or do you think that the competitor has shown their ability to solve, regardless of whether they actually solved or not? In that case, could you address the incorrect PLL thing I mentioned?

You complain about my arguments, the PLL thing was brushed off as absurd, but that's the point. It's supposed to be absurd. Recasting the arguments of those wanting to keep the rule in a more extreme example shows the failings of their arguments. You can complain about the style, but please acknowledge the actual points.

Seriously though, why are we thinking of changing a rule that will then hinder us rather than help us. Virtually every speedcuber has been affected and taken advantage of this rule. So why should we change it?
Can you explain what is hindered? Ignoring everything I said above about how a rule change would help, can you explain how the proposed rule change would make anything more difficult?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top