Slight improvement to Pochmann method for Clock (+ bonus trick)

[qqwref]

Recently, I noticed that it's possible to execute the two possible moves for a given position (rotating an up corner and a down corner) at the same time - even in different directions. This is because no pieces are shared by the two moves. Now, if you recall, the standard Pochmann method doesn't involve any pin movements right after the flip - the moves right before and right after the flip are the same as two possible moves for that position. So you can execute them both at the same time with careful finger placement.

I can see two possible ways to take advantage of this. The first way is to execute both moves before the flip; this would require memorizing the first move on the back side, which you probably already do. You would then flip the puzzle while changing pins, and start off with the second move. The second way is to memorize the alignment of the first side's cross, flip, and then do both moves at once. This would give you lookahead to the next move on the second face, but might be slower to execute.

If there are any fast (sub-10, say) clock solvers reading this, what do you think? Is this already well-known? Is it doable at speed? And could it save any time?


And here's the bonus trick: Say you solved the puzzle to a position rotated by some multiple of 90 degrees by accident. You can rotate all 18 clocks at once by moving the pins into a diagonal arrangement (Ud dU, or dU Ud) and then rotating both top clocks by the same amount.

 

[r_517]

I thought of this long time ago but didn't give it a try. In order to be very fast, you should be able to start with any edge which would take an advantage. Your thought might be useful to those who always start with a particular edge/pin, but it would be quite difficult to those who needs to start with any edge/pin (I never tried this before so I could be wrong)

 

[masterofthebass]

I thought of this long time ago but didn't give it a try. In order to be very fast, you should be able to start with any edge which would take an advantage. Your thought might be useful to those who always start with a particular edge/pin, but it would be quite difficult to those who needs to start with any edge/pin (I never tried this before so I could be wrong)

David Woner does pure pochmann. It can still be very fast.

 

[qqwref]

I think you could actually start with a few different edges and still use a trick like this. Maybe all of them, I'm not really sure.

I had another idea (which explicitly requires starting with a specific edge): doing two moves at the same time on the very first move, you can manipulate the back side so that you will always skip the first corner (bottom right in the standard Pochmann method). I'm not sure how hard this would be to calculate, but you do have 15 seconds, so it might be worth it.

 

[masterofthebass]

Back on point, but I think the usefulness of being able to do the first move before the flip is countered by the fact you have to use the DR wheel. I feel that the flip allows for the transition back into the crappy wheel turn in a nice way, rather than having to go rearrange your hands, and then flip the puzzle.

 

[Stefan]

You can rotate all 18 clocks at once by moving the pins into a diagonal arrangement (Ud dU, or dU Ud) and then rotating both top clocks by the same amount.

Darn, never realized it works for 90 degrees as well. With 180 degrees it's one of my two favorite scrambles to give to people (the other one is where I just turn a center by one hour, goes so against the normal solving method and many people don't know how to fix it optimally).

 

[Laura O]

I tried that and similar methods some time ago and didn't find it useful.
In my opition the "secret" of good times is just to skip as many turns as possible, to avoid long moves (turning from 6 to 12 or something like that) and to avoid regrips.
Executing two moves at the same time would require a regrip, which takes extra time although it is followed by the flip and also (as said before) a movement of the DR wheel. I don't think this could be an advantage.

 

[Godmil]

That's pretty cool. I've got a wee question. I only picked up a clock a wee while ago, and haven't really practiced, but I'm curious why people don't memorise the first face and solve it at the back - I tried it a few times, it took me more than 15 seconds to memorise but that with with no practice, it should be very doable. Would that save a lot of time instead of flipping, or in practice is it too awkward for minimal gain?

 

[Laura O]

Would that save a lot of time instead of flipping, or in practice is it too awkward for minimal gain?

I also practised this after there was some kind of WR some time ago....
Memorization is possible in about 10 seconds, but you won't have time to look for lucky cases on both sides.
So IMHO execution is slower and the gain is minimal...

 

[qqwref]

That's pretty cool. I've got a wee question. I only picked up a clock a wee while ago, and haven't really practiced, but I'm curious why people don't memorise the first face and solve it at the back - I tried it a few times, it took me more than 15 seconds to memorise but that with with no practice, it should be very doable. Would that save a lot of time instead of flipping, or in practice is it too awkward for minimal gain?

One problem with no-flipping is that it's a very risky strategy. You can't see the back side of the clock without flipping it over, so you have to make accurate turns without really being able to look at what you're doing. If one of your turns is at the wrong angle, DNF. It would save a little time if you get good at it (probably about as long as the flip takes) but IMO the risk makes it not worth it unless you can practice to the point of absolute perfection.

 

[Godmil]

One problem with no-flipping is that it's a very risky strategy. You can't see the back side of the clock without flipping it over, so you have to make accurate turns without really being able to look at what you're doing. If one of your turns is at the wrong angle, DNF. It would save a little time if you get good at it (probably about as long as the flip takes) but IMO the risk makes it not worth it unless you can practice to the point of absolute perfection.

Ah, yes, ok I see it now. I'm so slow on Clock that my turns are "click click click click done". Now I think about it the fast guys seem to spin the dials really smoothly. So I guess at speed it's harder to tell if you've nailed it by feel alone.

 

[Laura O]

One problem with no-flipping is that it's a very risky strategy. You can't see the back side of the clock without flipping it over, so you have to make accurate turns without really being able to look at what you're doing.

Well, due to the fact that every turn on the back-side results to a turn of the corner clocks on the front-side you are able to see what you're doing.
It's also faster to follow these clocks than to just count the single moves of the wheels. Of course it takes some time to practice to move them according to the memorized scramble, but it's possible.