Commutators for r/l edges on big cubes

[Henrik]

@joey: Buffer? You use a fixed buffer for centers? How?

You could use Stefan Pochmann's idea of the U2 method where Ufl is the buffer and Ubr is target then you can shoot to most centers.
For D centers you need to do setup to Dbr and then (rFd2F'r') U2 (rFd2F'r')
And for Fur, Lub, Rdb and Bdr you could do a U turn as setup.
For U-centers you can use a normal 3-cycle of corners using only inner slices and then U2 in the end.

I don't use this method but I looked at it yesterday
I use switching buffer target for centers Ubr and Ubl are my buffer's/target's

Henrik

Edit:/
forgot the link
http://speedsolving.com/showthread.php?t=2860&highlight=U2+for+centers

 

[blah]

Do you know of anyone who uses U2? 'Cause as far as I'm concerned, I think all big cube BLD guys use commutators for centers.

 

[masterofthebass]

Most of them do, but I know Tim Sun uses U2 centers. They are pretty easy, and fairly simple. Also, Lucas came up with r2 centers, which can work too.

 

[Henrik]

Sorry I don't know anyone using U2 for centers.
But I have thought about it.
It works on 5x5 too so I might adapt it for T-centers and still use my X-center system for the x-centers. I hope I don't get confused.

 

[blah]

You'd probably be less confused, because I just did a 5x5 BLD and while I was doing one cycle of T-centers, I subconsciously cycled the X-centers that were assigned the same letters. Luckily I realized and reversed the commutator before going on to the next one!

 

[Henrik]

That might be then
I will have to give it a try when I get time this summmer.

 

[deadalnix]

In a first time, I have used some alg and set-ups for center, but i switch to commutators now. It's realy easy on centers (I have more trouble for edges ).

 

[dbeyer]

This of algs to solve every cycle, buffer bound on a 5x5. 2204 cases.

378 for Corners
440 for Edges
440 for x-Centers
440 for t-Centers
506 for Wings

Later,
DB

 

[deadalnix]

You can't learn every cases. But like for F2L, you can get one for some tricky cases.

 

[cmhardw]

You can't learn every cases. But like for F2L, you can get one for some tricky cases.

Well, actually our goal is exactly to learn every case. You don't need to think of it as 2204 unrelated algorithms that have to be learned by rote memory. Really it's something like 20-30 different types of commutators that you must learn to see from any angle, and to be done on any face.

For example, Daniel and I both know all the corner commutators by now. I think Daniel knows all the edges commutators, and I'm probably at about 70%-80%. Currently I know about 70% of all the x-center and t-center commutators, and I would argue that Daniel and I both know nearly all of the wing commutators, if he doesn't know 100% already (I'm at probably 95%).

Again these are estimates as to the amount we know, but we have both done quite a bit of work to categorize and name each type of commutator, and learn how to recognize them on other faces, and from multiple angles.

Chris

 

[deadalnix]

what position do you use as buffer ?

 

[blah]

@Chris: Are you and Daniel the only two people in the world who actively using commutators for corners? Assuming 7 corners are wrong on average (I'm not sure, it's just a feel), and assuming you use 8-move commutators for every cycle, that's 3*8 = 24 moves to solve all corners, that is holy-crap-efficient!

 

[deadalnix]

You forget set-ups, but the idea is here

Some cases are tricky : when you get a 2*2-cycle for exemple, or a corner well placed but misoriented. And pray for not having a parity corner-edges !

I think that Clement gallet is using this method too. I'm thinking at switching for this method. I'm actulay learning 5-cycles, whitch is realy effiscient too, especialy if youy have a 2*2-cycles or parity. The move count is bigger, but main can be done in RU style so it's realy fast.

 

[masterofthebass]

Chris and Dan,

good luck learning that many more center commutators for the new 6x6 and 7x7

 

[Stefan]

I'm going to use U2, I did a few sighted solves with it the last days and it feels good so I'll try blindfolded with it soon.

 

[tim]

Chris and Dan,

good luck learning that many more center commutators for the new 6x6 and 7x7

There's nothing new to learn for cubes > 5x5. All centers are either edge or corner centers. So the same rules apply to them.

 

[deadalnix]

Theyre is no real difference between edges center and corner center to find commutator on them.

 

[blah]

différence

French?

Anybody considered using Lucas' r2 for centers?

 

[deadalnix]

différence

French?

Right.

 

[dbeyer]

I guess, dude, you're looking at a 36 move avg to solve corners.

8.7 moves on avg for a corner commutator, and 4 commutators for corners.
Approximately a 9 move avg for an edge commutator, and 6 commutators for corners.
On a 5x5 the average for centers as a whole is I believe 170-180 moves? Right Chris?

Based on a 9 move average, and 10 centers expected to be solved of the 48 centers. That is to say you could have 10 x-centers solved, and no t-centers. You could have 5/5, 4/6, 2/8, or 8/2 but the expected total is 10. And there could be variations. Not to say you couldn't have maybe only 7 centers solved on a bad solve, of 15-20 on a really nice solve like there was a few weeks ago during the weekly competition.

Here is what our standards and subset goals are:
Most optimal HTM/STM/BTM, depending on the situation. Edges and wings are STM. Corners are HTM.
Now we look to see if we can find a solution that uses quarter turns rather than double turns.

Rd'R' U' RdR' U -vs- U Fd2F' U' Fd2F'

Now we question execution. Is this practical?
If its an akward solution, we may subsitute the optimal akward solution for a faster suboptimal solution, still a commutator, normally only one extra move.

Its just a system ... thats all there is to it. Its not a complex system, where you have to look up algs like ZBLL. Its rather intuitive, just a few hints here and there, and you can notice the patterns and trends.

Mike Hughey liked the corner commutator system, I think he's learning it right now.
Later,
dB