Europe 2008

[Rama]

What if one day, 50% of the cubers in Europe are from other countries?

Marry someone with an European passport and change your passport if you want to cube so badly at the European Championship.

If I was in (let's say for example) Turkey for vacation and funny enough there is the Turkish (National Championships) during my vacation there, but I cannot compete because of my nationality, that's fine for me, because I think it's something between them.

I cannot imagine that Ron, Ton or I could compete at the German Nationals or even worse win it, just because we happen to organise (or helping organising) it.
Now some people get free or very cheap plane tickets and suddenly the always closed European Championships is ''open for everyone''.
Just call me a reactionist then.

 

[tim]

i think that the only thing that is affected is 'podium ego' and if you're the fastest euro cuber, it won't change because anyone else shows up.

Very true! I can't see any other reason for limiting the competition to Europeans either.

I'm a perfectionist (especially in cubing).

Sure? Since i've seen you at the German Open, i doubt that .

btw. am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?

 

[masterofthebass]

Jason (and Erik), This isn't a European matter. This is a World Cube Association event, and that pertains to all people who participate within that organization. The reason for people wanting to come to European championships, who aren't European, is to meet people. I really don't think anyone is coming over there for the sole purpose of beating Europeans. They could do that any time.

I personally wouldn't want to go to some of the other "local" Opens, for the simple fact that not everyone is there. Sadly, I didn't get to go to WC 07, but I've heard from people who went, it was a great, great thing. Plane tickets to Bilbao are insanely cheap, and would give me a similar opportunity.

The fact that people from other continents are there, still doesn't change the fact that you are competing against other Europeans to be the best. Having a few slower Americans isn't going to change anything.

BTW, plane tickets from Tokyo to Bilbao are about $2000 US, and I really don't think that's it's worth that much money to come and try to beat a few Europeans.

 

[Erik]

I know it's a world event, but the european championship is a european thing, organised, competed won and lost by Europeans. I agree that's there it's the biggest event so you want to go there, but it's the european championship. The idea of Europe Open is nice but why destroy the traditional good and loved European Championship as it is now?
Heck, you can even organise the European Open if you like to have such a thing! But why bother with the European Championship...

 

[ryo]

am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?

No ! But it's not the right question !
Why Americans didn't come at Montpellier Open, French Open, Nantes Open, Toulouse Open ??
All the french cubeurs will be happy to see them in France !
And it's the same in Spain.
Why they want to come at the Euro, if they come it's not the Euro, it's an Open, and it's good the Opens are great but there are already a lot of Opens...
I don't understand real motivation of american people in that discussion :confused:

Sorry, my english is so bad !

 

[Jason]

Masterofthebass, If I follow your reasonning correctly, then the Cincinnati Spring Open 2008 is a world matter. Therefore I take it that you wouldn't object if some people here in Montpellier would be allowed to influence executive and pretty final decisions without even letting a large majority of Ohio organisers/cubers consult beforehand on the matter?

 

[Doudou]

Jason (and Erik), This isn't a European matter. This is a World Cube Association event, and that pertains to all people who participate within that organization. The reason for people wanting to come to European championships, who aren't European, is to meet people. I really don't think anyone is coming over there for the sole purpose of beating Europeans. They could do that any time.

I personally wouldn't want to go to some of the other "local" Opens, for the simple fact that not everyone is there. Sadly, I didn't get to go to WC 07, but I've heard from people who went, it was a great, great thing. Plane tickets to Bilbao are insanely cheap, and would give me a similar opportunity.

The fact that people from other continents are there, still doesn't change the fact that you are competing against other Europeans to be the best. Having a few slower Americans isn't going to change anything.

BTW, plane tickets from Tokyo to Bilbao are about $2000 US, and I really don't think that's it's worth that much money to come and try to beat a few Europeans.

But we would love if you come !!! We would like to see you... And of course you are welcome...
We just want to forbid you to compete.

 

[tim]

am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?

No ! But it's not the right question !
Why Americans didn't come at Montpellier Open, French Open, Nantes Open, Toulouse Open ??
All the french cubeurs will be happy to see them in France !
And it's the same in Spain.
Why they want to come at the Euro, if they come it's not the Euro, it's an Open, and it's good the Opens are great but there are already a lot of Opens...
I don't understand real motivation of american people in that discussion :confused:

Sorry, my english is so bad !

More people (from Europe) => more fun.

btw. am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?

Yes, you are.

That's sad.

 

[Mike Hughey]

I'm fascinated by how important this seems to be by most of the Europeans here. I have to believe if the feeling is this strong from so many of them, perhaps this is a cultural difference between Europeans and Americans. Certainly some cultural differences do exist. And since we are a world organization, we need to respect the cultural differences in different parts of the world. If some parts of the world have a cultural bias towards wanting closed competitions, I think perhaps that should be respected. Doesn't that make sense?

I think the overwhelming support for open competitions in America might have something to do with the infamous American tendency towards "rugged individualism". I would prefer that all our competitions be open, but if it's important to others to have some closed, I'm okay with it.

 

[ryo]

I would prefer that all our competitions be open, but if it's important to others to have some closed, I'm okay with it.

Yes, we organise more and more Open in France and no american come, we want to see you in France to compete with us and why not at Euro to talk about cube, but not to compete...


masterofthebass -> If you don't come at all the european Open because you think there will not be everyone you never meet the european cubers you don't know ! And if some americans cubers come to an Open, for example Toulouse Open, and if you say it here, there will be more european cubers who want come at the open

An other thing : I see you don't understand why it's important for us to have an Euro with only europeans cubers but it's for this same reason if most of the european come for this competition and always for the same reason they will be less interest to come if it's an open and not "the Euro"...
Yes, it's a paradox...

 

[Inusagi]

So why do we have National competitions (where only the competitors from that country can compete)?

 

[rxdeath]

its is a world association, so i don't care about 'europeans' or 'americans' or any country/continental crap. there are many in favor of this being open, and if a european can't step up to the bar and compete in an open competition, then they don't deserve to win anyway. this is the best thing that's happened in the wca in a long time and look forward to a future with hopefully no closed tournaments. i mean its bad enough our daily lives are governed by all these feeble ideas of state and countries, why should it make our cubing lives have strife as well. there's no reason we can't play together all the time, except selfishness/ego.

btw. am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?

Yes, you are.

this is a travesty, tim, you're a good guy and i appreciate your openness to new and probably better ideas. fredqbr doesn't speak for all of europe *thank god* so don't let him make you feel bad, you made the right moral decision in my opinion


ron i publicly applaud the decision and your ideas, i hope my concerns didn't throw you under the bus, but i know you beleive this is best for everyone too, thanks

But we would love if you come !!! We would like to see you... And of course you are welcome...
We just want to forbid you to compete.

so you want to win, but not compete against everyone?we should come but not compete? a victory where you exclude people from participating is no victory at all.

 

[Jason]

I think Fredqbr speaks for an overwhelming majority of european cubers!!! This is not about selfishness or ego, this is about wanting to compete amongst europeans! What's so hard to understand? And it's nothing to do with national pride or chauvinism. I think you should simply respect the wishes of the overwhelming majority of european cubers. As I've already said, it's an european matter, so, rxdeath, if you're not even planning on coming, just lay off!!!

 

[Cerberus]

I think there are so many Opens and the idea of having a European only competition is ok and right, because like in other sports you sometimes just want to compete with your region, like at the nationals, you go for a title that others can't earn and when you reach it or get close to it you see it clearly there are no competitors which can't go for the title.
Maybe there should be an euro closed AND open, which it bigger and give everybody the chance to compete like the german open, benelux open, lyon open etc do too, but it's organized for more events, bigger prices, more competitors, just what you hope that is better at euros than at madrid open.

 

[Mike Hughey]

its is a world association, so i don't care about 'europeans' or 'americans' or any country/continental crap. there are many in favor of this being open, and if a european can't step up to the bar and compete in an open competition, then they don't deserve to win anyway. this is the best thing that's happened in the wca in a long time and look forward to a future with hopefully no closed tournaments. i mean its bad enough our daily lives are governed by all these feeble ideas of state and countries, why should it make our cubing lives have strife as well. there's no reason we can't play together all the time, except selfishness/ego.

rxdeath, you're a classic example of an "individualist" (at least with regard to this issue):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism

There's nothing wrong with having this view; I'm largely an individualist as well. But there are other opinions out there, and since "it is a world assocation", I think we should care about each other's points of view. It's true that there are many in favor of this being open, but it's also true that there are many against it being open. It seems to me that you are attempting to force other parts of the world to go against their own cultural bias in order to follow yours. Even though it may be counterintuitive to your point of view, it doesn't seem like such an effort is very "world-minded" to me.

I think if a significant majority of Europeans want this closed, it should be closed. It's the culturally respectful thing to do.

And I hope that most if not all American competitions will stay open, since that's my preference.

 

[debase]

Same feeling as Erik and Edouard, I DONT WANT THIS EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP OPEN

Jean Pons

 

[Rama]

I started practising OH again to race against Gunnar Krig and Milán Baticz for the European title, but now there won't be an European title.

 

[Doudou]

Mike... You are american and can still understand an another point of view...
You're intelligent...
I totally admit that you (americans) prefer an US Open/Championnship, and I respect it. But I don't want it here.

 

[rxdeath]

I think Fredqbr speaks for an overwhelming majority of european cubers!!! This is not about selfishness or ego, this is about wanting to compete amongst europeans! What's so hard to understand? And it's nothing to do with national pride or chauvinism. I think you should simply respect the wishes of the overwhelming majority of european cubers. As I've already said, it's an european matter, so, rxdeath, if you're not even planning on coming, just lay off!!!

lol i about care what you tell me to do. this is important enough to **** people off, its not just me, i don't run the decisions process, i voiced a concern and it was agreed with. everyone should get to compete everywhere, its not a matter of euro vs. USA or anything like that. i actually like the idea of someone as a punishment for closed tourneys, if you have a closed one, none of the times should count in the wca database. if you're not willing to compete against the world, then your times shouldn't affect the rest of us if you have some elitist competition.

cubers from other continents don't influence your ability to cube against europeans, unless you have some feeble construct built in your mind to make it that way. besides glory/ego reasons no one has offered one good reason why any human being should be excluded from anything, so that's why i'm confident that this is the right decision. we're here to discuss it and plan on contributing until the discussion is over.

Mike... You are american and can still understand an another point of view...
You're intelligent...
I totally admit that you (americans) prefer an US Open/Championnship, and I respect it. But I don't want it here.

many of us that think it should be open are intelligent also . i understand your point of view, but believe it is wrong because you exclude people, and it should be stopped.

 

[Tyson]

Want to just get rid of national designations then?