Europe 2008

[rxdeath]

so if you don't wanna change my party why do you wanna change the way the EC is held? It's still our European championship. We can't vote who is US president either can we (even if he is so powerful as he is..)?

its not yours. every competition is every cubers. and as i said, your not an international organization. i would want you to change your party but if you want to exclude people its YOUR party, unlike this competition.

Ewks: i am quite intelligent already, and understand/respect is quite different that disagreeing. i understand and respect the other side, but believe it is wrong, so i fight against it. you disrespect me by implying i'm dumb because i don't agree with you, but i don't care what you say about me personally because i still have heard no concrete reason that this decsion wasn't the best.

 

[Karthik]

why change the way of how I hold my party...

p.s. at Karthik: I don't understand what you mean sorry..

Well, my interpretation of that statement was that you insisted on not changing the way things are done right now.I said that we have been doing things this way for not more than 4 years.So it is not too late to change and do things the right way.

 

[Ewks]

rxdeath you just showed a good examble of people thinking differently in different parts of world. You as an american think this idea of two different partys is absurd, because you have been raised and have lived in environment where people don't do that and Erik as an european does that because he was raised and has lived in an environment where this is normal and not at all absurd.

 

[Bryan]

What I don't understand either is why the American's keep compairing US Open/Nationals to Europe (Open), US Open is from one country after all, while Europe is a continent.

Because they're about the same size?

 

[rxdeath]

rxdeath you just showed a good examble of people thinking differently in different parts of world. You as an american think this idea of two different partys is absurd, because you have been raised and have lived in environment where people don't do that and Erik as an european does that because he was raised and has lived in an environment where this is normal and not at all absurd.

where did i say its absurd? i doubt you have a clue what i think, so please don't put words in my mouth. he can do what he wants because eriks birthday isn't an international club sponsored event. i said i wouldn't do it that way, but i never disrespected the idea, and this analogy is worthless to what we're talking about.

does anyone have any concrete real ideas as to why this bad besides ego/tradition/glory bs, we keep losing focus...

for the record, this is about ALL competitions to me, not just euros 2008, if some people think that

 

[Ewks]

Ewks: i am quite intelligent already, and understand/respect is quite different that disagreeing. i understand and respect the other side, but believe it is wrong, so i fight against it. you disrespect me by implying i'm dumb because i don't agree with you, but i don't care what you say about me personally because i still have heard no concrete reason that this decsion wasn't the best.

You can not say that you respect someone's oppinion and still say that their oppinion is wrong. There are no right or wrong oppinnions.And I don't expect you to care about my oppinnion about you personally 'cause I do not know you. Actually I don't even care about you personally I only think that you are being disrespectful and rude.

 

[Ewks]

where did i say its absurd? i doubt you have a clue what i think, so please don't put words in my mouth. he can do what he wants because eriks birthday isn't an international club sponsored event. i said i wouldn't do it that way, but i never disrespected the idea, and this analogy is worthless to what we're talking about.

My point only was that you would do it differently. it does not matter how you said it only that you said that you wouldn't do it the way Erik would.

 

[rxdeath]

Ewks: i am quite intelligent already, and understand/respect is quite different that disagreeing. i understand and respect the other side, but believe it is wrong, so i fight against it. you disrespect me by implying i'm dumb because i don't agree with you, but i don't care what you say about me personally because i still have heard no concrete reason that this decsion wasn't the best.

You can not say that you respect someone's oppinion and still say that their oppinion is wrong. There are no right or wrong oppinnions.And I don't expect you to care about my oppinnion about you personally 'cause I do not know you. Actually I don't even care about you personally I only think that you are being disrespectful and rude.

i have stated 'in my opinion' 'i think' etc many times, if i left it off here and there then boo hoo, but i figured everyone was smart enough to know everything i say is my opinion. i didn't know you wrote the rules on opinions and respect, forward me the pdf, and i'll take a look.

now do you have anything of value to contribute or do you just want to pick at me since i'm spearheading the effort?

 

[Erik]

this discussion about wether open or closed is not going anywhere now. I tried to find a solution but apparently nobody seemed to think about it. Hope you will find this satisfying...
As far as it is now there are some possibilities, lets look at them, I tried and hopefull explained this purely analyzing what I've seen. I did this since the way things were decided now are weird to me and should be reajusted

1. nothing changes, it will be open: result loads of angry European people, but everyone can compete. Further possible results: there will be a non-recognized EC held by European people for European people, which again non-european people won't like.
2. they change it back to closed: result happy European people, angry (mostly) Americans, not everyone can compete
3. This tournament will be open plust there is also a European open in the future (or vice versa): result, Europeans happy, everyone can compete, (mostly) Americans happy plus some with 'still not satisfied because there is still a closed tournament somewhere in the world' thoughts.

I'd say with option 3 there will be the most people happy. Plus after this solution we can calmly discuss what to do further with this subject.

 

[Worms]

Worms that's not really funny imho, this is a serious discussion...

It is not necessary that the humor is graceful. The sarcasm and the irony are something serious, They comes from the poetry as literary resource and they have adapted in a long process to the colloquial speech, if you do not understand it to the language of the street, in the rest something serious is not anything not funny because graceful and serious have not been ever total linguistically antonyms

 

[rubikaz]

First: I have told maybe, I have not told you that I have more ideas.

The main ideas about why it should be closed have been said here so I think that I didn't have to say the same things again. But...

i think that the only thing that is affected is 'podium ego' and if you're the fastest euro cuber, it won't change because anyone else shows up.

With my post I wanted to say: it is not true, I think as them but my podium ego is not affected so not only Europe top think, for example Im not an european top and I think as them.

The name is European Championship, not European Open. If you want a competition with people of all world, wait a year till next World Championship or call it World Championship. We can organize a European Championship and a World Championship the same year...

I can say several things but I think that it is enough with the previous posts of other guys. Each one has an opinion and it is very difficult to get that some of us (european and not european) change it so I dont want to have a long discussion (if I have to do it, I prefer do it in Spanish) :confused:

 

[rxdeath]

this discussion about wether open or closed is not going anywhere now. I tried to find a solution but apparently nobody seemed to think about it. Hope you will find this satisfying...
As far as it is now there are some possibilities, lets look at them, I tried and hopefull explained this purely analyzing what I've seen. I did this since the way things were decided now are weird to me and should be reajusted

1. nothing changes, it will be open: result loads of angry European people, but everyone can compete. Further possible results: there will be a non-recognized EC held by European people for European people, which again non-european people won't like.
2. they change it back to closed: result happy European people, angry (mostly) Americans, not everyone can compete
3. This tournament will be open plus there is also a European open in the future (or vice versa): result, Europeans happy, (mostly) Americans happy plus some with 'still not satisfied because there is still a closed tournament somewhere in the world' thoughts.

I'd say with option 3 there will be the most people happy. Plus after this solution we can calmly discuss what to do further with this subject.

1. i think its sad that people would be so selfish as to try and make a rift in the WCA over this. one of Kasparov's great regrets was his feud with FIDE, and openly admitted it hurt the sport over his ego.

2. i don't think 'feelings' matter as much as 'fairness'

3. have them both and make them both open, we can compete more!

 

[Ewks]

I agree with you Erik about option 3. And I will now stop posting to this topic before there is something I really like to disscus about. I don't think that we can change the fact that this EC is going to be at this point closed but I think that those who are thinking of organising the next really big european competition will remember this topic and make the decition of it being open or closed based on Europeans oppinions on this matter.

 

[shelley]

Why would loads of European people be angry just because a few non-Europeans get to compete? How many foreigners do you expect will actually come to the competition? Clancy, Tyson and I have been pretty vocal about the issue, but it's just about the principle. I'm not even planning to go, and chances are they aren't either. Europe is a long and expensive trip for something that's not on the level of a world championship.

Option 3 might make tournament organizers unhappy. It would make people who have to travel a second time unhappy. Do you know how much time, work and money goes into organizing a big tournament like that? With option 3 they have to organize another one just because you guys are so insistent on having a closed competition. I don't think open vs. closed will even make a big difference, unless Yu Nakajima decides to fly over there and kick everyone's ass. You'll have maybe five non-European competitors and then you'll realize this whole argument is completely silly.

 

[rxdeath]

I agree with you Erik about option 3. And I will now stop posting to this topic before there is something I really like to disscus about. I don't think that we can change the fact that this EC is going to be at this point closed but I think that those who are thinking of organising the next really big european competition will remember this topic and make the decition of it being open or closed based on Europeans oppinions on this matter.

it will be the cubing community as a whole, not just europeans, quit being elitist. i hope they implement the exclusion of times of any closed competitions in the wca database, that would be 'fair' because if if you're not letting others have the chance to set records and due good times, your times shouldn't be allowed either.

despite everything, no one has told me all openess is unfair to some, or how closed is fair to all, does anyone have this useful input for the opposing view?

 

[Erik]

I'd be happy to help with the organisation myself and I think Edouard and Rama will probably too.

Rxdeath: why be so stubborn now? Don't you like option 3? Maybe after we had one year of both we think: 'hey that open Europe is cool lets always do that'. Maybe you are ahead of our time and we are too slow to realize that, but untill now please try to find a solution which makes us both as happy as possible. Oh and I don't give a **** if the times at the EC would not be in the WCA database, there are enough tournaments to set PB's at.

 

[Tyson]

PCA vs. FIDE. We should learn from history that a split like that would likely be the end of organized cubing.

 

[Karthik]

You want to spent a whole lot of time, energy and money to organize another large scale competition just because you don't want foreigners to compete in the current competition?
How rational is that?

 

[rxdeath]

I'd be happy to help with the organisation myself and I think Edouard and Rama will probably too.

Rxdeath: why be so stubborn now? Don't you like option 3? Maybe after we had one year of both we think: 'hey that open Europe is cool lets always do that'. Maybe you are ahead of our time and we are too slow to realize that, but untill now please try to find a solution which makes us both as happy as possible. Oh and I don't give a **** if the times at the EC would not be in the WCA database, there are enough tournaments to set PB's at.

because i think i'm right, if i didn't i wouldn't be working to abolish closed competitions. no one is pointing at the issue, there is no reason why all open comps isn't fair to everyone, and why closed is unfair, unless someone has a good reason, then i fail to see why this argument continues, when its shown that 'fairness' is acheived by open for all. i'd like option 3 if both were open . i don't think i'm better or ahead of my time, i think i have a viewpoint, i've backed it up with facts, and no one has presented anything to make me think i'm mistaken.

 

[Erik]

PCA vs. FIDE. We should learn from history that a split like that would likely be the end of organized cubing.

Yes we don't want that, but splits only occur when people are dissatisfied with the way things are atm, plus I didn't mention anything about or saw anything about a new organisation.. (btw, in Darts the split is quite ok, not that I want a split, just want to show another side of the story...)

Could you instead also give your opinion about my option number 3?
And to all against #3 please come with a better solution! So far as I've seen I'm the only one who actually tried to find a solution in this mess instead of trying the other partie convince their point is right!