Europe 2008

[Erik]

Certainly some cultural differences do exist. And since we are a world organization, we need to respect the cultural differences in different parts of the world. If some parts of the world have a cultural bias towards wanting closed competitions, I think perhaps that should be respected. Doesn't that make sense?

Thank's Mike, you managed to explain something which some of us including me failed to do here I think.

What I don't understand either is why the American's keep compairing US Open/Nationals to Europe (Open), US Open is from one country after all, while Europe is a continent. As far as I know there has never been such a thing as a North-American Championship am I right?

Maybe we will seriously hold our own European Championship if it doesn't change back.. maybe in America... (Holland)

 

[Tyson]

But the same could be said the other way around. The United States does not hold closed competitions because it would simply take away an opportunity from many people who live in the United States but are from other countries. Shouldn't these same type of people in Europe also be respected?

 

[rxdeath]

Certainly some cultural differences do exist. And since we are a world organization, we need to respect the cultural differences in different parts of the world. If some parts of the world have a cultural bias towards wanting closed competitions, I think perhaps that should be respected. Doesn't that make sense?

Thank's Mike, you managed to explain something which some of us including me failed to do here I think.

Maybe we will seriously hold our own European Championship if it doesn't change back.. maybe in America... (Holland)

it doesn't make sense when others suffer because of it. closed competitions aren't fair to everyone.

if there is a closed competition i seriously think that none of the times should count, if you aren't competing against the world, then your times shouldn't go in the world database.

 

[Tyson]

I am also confused when people talk of tradition in terms of cubing when the sport is only 4-year-old.

 

[Doudou]

Tyson, hear me. And try to understand.
Imagine a person who lives near Bilbao, and who wants to go to a competition.
There were already 3 competitions in Spain this year. There was also Montpellier Open, and will be Toulouse Open. At least 3 competitions were less than 500 km from his house.
He can go. It's not like if he could not.

You are living in a big country. Please, try to understand. It's very important for us.

 

[rxdeath]

Tyson, hear me. And try to understand.
Imagine a person who lives near Bilbao, and who wants to go to a competition.
There were already 3 competitions in Spain this year. There was also Montpellier Open, and will be Toulouse Open. At least 3 competitions were less than 500 km from his house.
He can go. It's not like if he could not.

You are living in a big country. Please, try to understand. It's very important for us.

european union is just as easy to get around as the united states, you guys have as many if not more competitions that we do. if that person wants to go to the competition, they have nothing stopping them going. you think we don't understand, but we understand perfectly, its that we don't agree.

 

[Tyson]

But there is a major experience associated with a large tournament. EC will draw competitors from all around Europe. This atmosphere is unmatched by any other tournament you could possibly hold.

And so by holding a closed competition, you exclude these people from this experience. Why can't you simply separate the processes of the Europeans from everyone else in your mind, and pitch it that way to the press? Nationality is really a subjective mental fabrication of the human mind. If you can see yourself as being French, you can see yourself as being European Champion.

No foreigner I think would really be adamant about sharing podium time should he win. You can have the same glory as everyone else, and stand on the podium all by yourself with your European colleagues. And honestly, I would like the opportunity to applaud you in your efforts.

But is it such a horrible thing to grant a few solves to a visitor? You can have everything you want, and everything you talk about. I personally would be willing to validate your status as the European Champion for 2008, but not at the expense of others.

You can keep your glory, but at least share the atmosphere. No one can take away your accomplishments unless you let them.

 

[Tyson]

Edouard,

You make it seem like people all over the world are after your prize money and your medals and your spot on the podium.

Really, we just want to share a glass of wine. Or two. (Or half... for some people.)

 

[AvGalen]

Wow, a lot of discussion and heavy debating is going on in here. I was also very surprised when I found out that the European Championship changed to a European Open and have very mixed feelings about this.

I really like the idea of having a (Dutch) National Championship, a European Championship, a World Championship and as many Open tournaments (Dutch Open, Twente Open, Benelux Open, Europe Open or even Amsterdam Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn Opens)

The thing is that Europe was planned to be a closed Championship and was changed to an Open Championship. Had it been an Open from the start all this discussion wouldn't have happened. People had expectations and changing them is a big step.

So just to be clear: I hope this will be changed back to a Closed Championship and that a Europe Open will also be organised. In reality, I don't think that a Europe Open will be organised this year. However, many Open Europeans have already been organised and many more will be organised.

P.S.1: How many "non-Europeans" are really planning to come to Bilbao?
P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?

 

[Erik]

Thanks for trying to further expressing what I feel too and which I apparently didn't make clear yet Arnaud!

Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete. For that make a seperate Europe Open and not instead throw away the EC and try to change the way we do things and how it was planned in the first place (especially with a decision which is make too quick or without checking for the general opinion in a long enough period in advance!). This way we respect both parties and both goals will be mostly satisfied...
The great atmosphere will be there (better than the other EC since more people), it'll be bigger than any other tournaments, we still have our inbetween fight in the EC which we like and want to keep as you see, we won't whine about any non-european coming to the Open since it's for that purpose.
It's not that bad that there are closed competitions where the winner gets the title of the best cuber of that region. And if you think it is bad, why not respect the wishes of the people from here, how bad they might look to you. (this is not specificly addressed to Tyson)

 

[shelley]

I honestly don't see what this huge fuss is about. "Destroying" the championship? It's not like an army of American and Asian cubers is planning to go over there and beat everyone because the EC is now open. In fact, many American cubers are students and can't afford a few hundred dollars for a plane ticket to Europe anyway.

This is great news for non European citizens who either are living in Europe or just happen to be in the area when the tournament takes place. Wouldn't you agree that it would be a shame not to let them compete just because of where they were born?

 

[Doudou]

Still agree with Erik and Arnoud.

 

[rxdeath]

Wow, a lot of discussion and heavy debating is going on in here. I was also very surprised when I found out that the European Championship changed to a European Open and have very mixed feelings about this.

I really like the idea of having a (Dutch) National Championship, a European Championship, a World Championship and as many Open tournaments (Dutch Open, Twente Open, Benelux Open, Europe Open or even Amsterdam Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn Opens)

The thing is that Europe was planned to be a closed Championship and was changed to an Open Championship. Had it been an Open from the start all this discussion wouldn't have happened. People had expectations and changing them is a big step.

So just to be clear: I hope this will be changed back to a Closed Championship and that a Europe Open will also be organised. In reality, I don't think that a Europe Open will be organised this year. However, many Open Europeans have already been organised and many more will be organised.

P.S.1: How many "non-Europeans" are really planning to come to Bilbao?
P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?

i hope it won't be changed back, this is the correct decision, expectations are irrelevent as well as ps 1 and ps2, the only relevance is fairness. i want to come and will probably be in the area at that time. other tournaments don't have the appeal of this competition, so why rob anyone of the opportunity.

the focus is reasoning...if there is even one non-ego driven reason for this to be closed i'd love to hear it. people say its about competing against other europeans, but you still can do that so that argument is null. you can still have whatever silly title is handed out. you can have your special podium time where every claps because your so good. what's missing?

Thanks for trying to further expressing what I feel too and which I apparently didn't make clear yet Arnaud!

Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete. For that make a seperate Europe Open and not instead throw away the EC and try to change the way we do things and how it was planned in the first place (especially with a decision which is make too quick or without checking for the general opinion in a long enough period in advance!). This way we respect both parties and both goals will be mostly satisfied...
The great atmosphere will be there (better than the other EC since more people), it'll be bigger than any other tournaments, we still have our inbetween fight in the EC which we like and want to keep as you see, we won't whine about any non-european coming to the Open since it's for that purpose.
It's not that bad that there are closed competitions where the winner gets the title of the best cuber of that region. And if you think it is bad, why not respect the wishes of the people from here, how bad they might look to you. (this is not specificly addressed to Tyson)

this is just selfish, everyone should get to compete. this is all just ego/glory/tradition reasoning. nothing concrete as to why anyone isn't important enough to compete in the competition. it is bad that there are closed competition, and i'm glad i'm fighting to kill them permanently. if people think less of me for this then i don't care because i believe i'm doing the right thing for the WORLD community

 

[Worms]

I'm sorry but Doudou, Erik, Jean, Rama, Frederick... are wrong

Everybody knows that europe is this :

Now seriously, that's not logic that non-european people could compete in an european championship...

 

[Karthik]

Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete.

Oh come on!How can you invite some one to a cubing competition and ask them not to compete?!
Isn't that against the whole spirit of WCA and it's goals?
I am still confused about whether WCA competitions should be open or closed, but no offense Erik, I think it is very rude to invite someone and ask them not to compete.

 

[rxdeath]

thanks for your extremely intelligent post, it really helps contribute to the discussion.

I'm sorry but Doudou, Erik, Jean, Rama, Frederit... are wrong

Everybody knows that europe is this :

Now seriously, that's not logic that non-european people could compete in an european championship...

 

[AvGalen]

I think a lot of this "huge fuss" is because Europeans don't really feel European yet.

Maybe a small (and not very good) history lesson would explain something?

I am only 31 years old, but when I was young our neighboring country (Germany) was our former enemy (worldwar I and II) that we were starting to trust again. The European Union was only a couple of Western European countries.

A decade later the European Union was basically Western Europe, but Eastern Europe (the other side of the Iron curtain) was still considered a threat.

Another decade later the cold war was over, Germany was united again and the European Union had grown way beyond an economic cooperation.

At this moment (another decade later) the EU has a lot of legislative power, travelling is basically unrestricted, working in other countries is starting to get unrestricted and we have a common currency (not everywhere (yet))

Europe is 1 entity is still building and expanding and European Championships help us realize this. Through all these decades, people have had National, European and World Championships in every sport and we like that very much. We also like big international tournaments, global competitions and the Olympics.

(I am not a historian. Please don't start nitpicking on details)

expectations are irrelevent

No they are not!

 

[shelley]

Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete.

Oh come on!How can you invite some one to a cubing competition and ask them not to compete?!
Isn't that against the whole spirit of WCA and it's goals?
I am still confused about whether WCA competitions should be open or closed, but no offense Erik, I think it is very rude to invite someone and ask them not to compete.

Yeah, it's like inviting someone to your birthday party and not letting him have cake.

 

[Doudou]

Yes Arnoud ! We like it ! We want it !

Just after a such conversation i feel more european...

Shelley : It depends on who cooked the cake...

 

[Erik]

It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends.