Are white and black considered colors?

Godmil, just so you know, I was trying to paraphrase your argument in such a way as to show you why we are reacting to your zero argument in the way we are. Your zero argument, to me, reads very similarly to how that pi argument reads.
 
well,what about this?

According to that site, definition 3, which they say is the most accurate:
Is black a color?

No, black is not a color; a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them to the eyes.

The grey area about black:
A black object may look black, but, technically, it may still be reflecting some light. For example, a black pigment results from a combination of several pigments that collectively absorb most colors. If appropriate proportions of three primary pigments are mixed, the result reflects so little light as to be called "black." In reality, what appears to be black may be reflecting some light.
In physics, a black body is a perfect absorber of light.

Is white a color?

Yes, white is a color. White reflects all the colors of the visible light spectrum to the eyes.

In conclusion

The colors we see are simply a degree of how much of this color present in light is reflected. To be completely accurate, a color reflects the wavelengths in the NM range that our retinal cones respond to.
The medium is the process of reflection of the wavelength of the color.
The receiver is our eyes which receive the wavelength of the color.
 
I think a color is something you can see. So, for example, air doesn't have color. But I might expressed myself wrong, but I think e.g water doesn't have color either.
We've learned something in chemistry about this, I'll try to translate it but I don't guarantee that you'll understand it, sorry.
So, as you might know, everything is made of atoms, which are made of protons, electrons and neutrons. Now we only care about electrons. So, every single electron is on certain a "track"* around the "core" (which is made of protons and neutrons). But if you give energy to it ("induce" it), it might go to another track (and if there's an electron, it'll also go to another track etc.). If it does, it shows some kind of color and thus you'll be able to see it. So, if the energy of light is enough to send electrons on another track, they have color.
What does it have to do with black and white? Well, it's simple: you see them, don't you? Therefore they're both colors.

* if a word is between quotation marks, that means that I'm not sure in the translation.

EDIT: I've just read your post, Chris (and the FMC's).
I think it's good to consider whether black or transparent is not a color...:)
 
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What's the probability that so many people in the same thread have a broken "u" key?
I've been wondering that too. I guess the keyboards in the UK and Australia (and some places in Europe) are just poorly manufactured.

PS: Can people stop saying "technically" or "scientifically speaking" or whatever? We're not being technical because this is not a discussion on wavelengths. It's a discussion on color. Black objects CAN reflect light and white objects CAN absorb light. Nothing is purely black or white anyway. Deal with it.

I don't see how this matters? Colors are referred to in adjective forms all the time.
Uh, it matters because "definition 20" is not some obscure definition found at the bottom of the page, but is actually the most accepted definition for the noun form?

(1)qqwref: Just because "most people" say it's a color, does not make it a color.
(2) Most people refer to clear as a color as well, but clear as (hopefully we can agree) is actually colorless.
(3) Yes, reflecting all light is a way to reflect light, but if you don't reflect any light, how can you consider that a way to reflect light?
(4) I see the purpose as a property or such, but we cannot say it reflects when it quite clear in the definition that it does not.
(1) That's not what I mean (and, wait, are you actually acknowledging that some people would find "black" a nonsensical answer to the question "what color is this?"?). I mean that color is a concept that people understand intuitively, and so there is no point in having a definition that goes against our intuitive understanding, because then you can't explain anything related to human experience using that definition.
(2) Clear isn't a color because it's a separate aspect of appearance. Things can be clear and orange.
(3,4) "How do you reflect light?" "I don't reflect any." That's how. This isn't any different (or harder to understand) then the concept of zero being a possible number of things. Look at it like this, suppose I hit you with a red and a blue photon and you can reflect or absorb each of those two. I think is is pretty obvious there are 4 ways you could reflect light: don't reflect either, reflect red only, reflect blue only, reflect both.

And again, the definition may be pretty specific, but remember that people will call things "black" or "white" when they reflect a small amount of light, or absorb a small amount of light. That's how you can actually see the features of a black backpack.
 
I belive black and white are colors. But why is it called "colorblind" when you still can see black and white?
Well, colorblind people are blind to some colors (actually, that's not strictly true, they're blind to some *distinctions* between colors). For instance one type can't tell red and green apart, but can easily tell those two from yellow or blue.
 
Yes, you can vandalize, but it'll likely get fixed quickly. Plus wikipedia is generally *not* written by moronic kids with no idea what they're doing. Don't make it sound like it is (90% of my "********" were for that alone). And the article doesn't just state that "oh well, black's a color". It provides a proper justification for it as well. And apparently the wikipedia community agrees.

I didn't mention vandalizing once, in fact, I showed how to properly submit changes to a protect page (which I believe that is).


Oh you mean the dictionary definition was from a robot or god or whatever, not a person?

Oh, I mean the dictionary that you use in education systems and to define words otherwise. We use the dictionary as a reference often enough (we as in the people here on the forum), and typically the dictionary definition is used to settle things. You by chance remember that "go back to whear you learn what look means" don't you? I'm guessing wherever that place might have been (I believe you suggested preschool) would have taught me the defition from a dictionary.



Buuuuuuuuullshiiiiiiiiiiiit. No they're not. They're often *used* in adjective form, but rarely referred to like that. You'd have to do that like "the red color" or "the color that is red" instead of "red". Do you do that? No you don't. And take the title of this thread, for example. It's a noun there. Just like in almost all uses inside the thread.

Alright, you got me, I shouldn't have said referred. You understood my point though, which is what matters.


Yeah sure, ignore the rest of the sentence.

"Although black is sometimes described as an "achromatic", or hueless, color, in practice it can be considered a color"

First of all, the part that you left out says *sometimes*. Why did you hide that, and even added "only in practice"? Secondly, it's still referred to as a color, just a special kind. The way I read that is that while it's sometimes described as a special color, it's usually a regular one. That said, I don't really like the wording there. Thirdly, white and gray are achromatic/hueless colors as well, so if you say that makes black a non-color, you must also say white and gray aren't colors. Do you?

And now I'll leave because I'm quite sure you're just trolling. You can't be serious with all that stuff.

The way I read this, it says sometimes that it is described as achromitic or hueless. It appears to me that "sometimes" has nothing to do with it being called a color "in practice." I didn't say that is what makes black not a color, I'm talking about how it specifically does not reflect any light, whereas white clearly does. The article states that as well.

qqwref:
1: I'm not saying people find it nonsensical. I'm only saying that science teachers and students will acknolwedge that people think black is a color, but by their scientific reasoning it is not.

2: Yes, that would normally be referred to as translucent orange though, or by most others I'm sure we'd hear "see through orange." Typically when people say something is clear, they mean colorless, much like water or glass.

3: Right, but if the definition of color states that light is reflected for it to be a color (which it does), then reflecting no light means you are not a color. Though I understand your point (reflecting/absorbing the photons), if you reflect nothing then you are not reflecting. I think a better way to word that would be there are 4 possible outcomes, instead of 4 ways to reflect light.

And about your "technically" comment, I thought that's why this thread was created? So people could debate about whether they are or are not colors (which would be a technicality matter?)
 
I didn't mention vandalizing once, in fact, I showed how to properly submit changes to a protect page (which I believe that is).

You made it sound like anyone can write anything there. Well... go ahead and try to get the page to say for more than an hour that black isn't a color. Good luck.

You by chance remember that "go back to whear you learn what look means" don't you?

Ha, was that you? I had already forgotten about that. Don't see how that has anything to do with our current situation, though, unless you can show me any reasonable definition anywhere that says look doesn't mean look. About color, we do have differing reasonable definitions.

Alright, you got me, I shouldn't have said referred. You understood my point though, which is what matters.

Yeah, your point was to try hiding the fact that you were caught wrongly downplaying the definition you didn't like.

science teachers and students will acknolwedge that people think black is a color, but by their scientific reasoning it is not.

[citation needed]
 
science teachers and students will acknolwedge that people think black is a color, but by their scientific reasoning it is not.

So... I googled "is black a color" inurl:edu. First hit doesn't seem to really discuss it, second hit says "which is black, a color", and third hit looked most promising. The page is titled "Ask a Color Scientist", it's from the Munsell Color Science Laboratory at the Rochester Institute of Technology. Hope it's scientific enough. They write:

Scientifically speaking, is black a color? Is white a color? (862)

There is no question that black and white are colors.

The technical definition of color that is internationally agreed upon includes them as colors and, specifically, there is a definition of achromatic colors as follows: "A color lacking hue; white or grey or black".
 
Anybody can write anything on wikipedia, that's the whole point of the project. Now I do agree with you that people do administer a hefty load of the articles on the site, but the reason changes are made is because people show some sort of validity that the administrators deem it should stay on there. I don't see how scientific reasoning is not enough to at least state "technically black is not a color" and provide adequate definitions.

Yeah, that was me, but my point was that you told me to go back to where I learned what it meant, which was from a teacher (presumably preschool?) who (my guess) got the definition from her education, that (my guess) stemmed eventually from a dictionary. There is a technicality in that argument (about looking) as well but it is long gone and not relevant here.

Actually, it has nothing to do with disliking the definition, I hit used find to search for color, grabbed the definition number and came back.

As for the citations, I'm sure there is some sort of criteria they need to meet? I was basing that statement off hearing about this debate every year since at least 6th grade in every science class, and often in art class as well. However, since I know the size of the debate, I did some googling even though I'm rather confident if you weren't going to prove a point here you would agree with me on this).

A simple google "Is black a color" and the first result says something really close to what I said: The answer to this question is one of the most debated issues about color. Ask a scientist and you'll get the physics reply: “Black is not a color, white is a color.”

http://www.colormatters.com/vis_bk_white.html
 
Of course black and white are colors. Everything has a color. If they weren't colors, you couldn't buy black and white paints.
 
Seriously? A site full of ads, made by a single person who doesn't look much like a scientist, is your answer to the site I just showed? Wow.

Please refer to the "criteria" bit of my sentence? Even still if we ask a scientist and (if) he gives us an opinion, that is still an opinion, not a fact. If he gives us a fact, we'll want some sort of citation from that as well. This seems like it would continue to go into a circle until we get to a universally accepted definition of terms. Is a dictionary not just that?

Here is a site that claims it has expert scientists and you can submit questions to scientists. I did a search, I found this article:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00156.htm

"ProfHoff" (I'll take a guess this is a Professor Richard Hoffman) states that "The color of an object depends on the wavelengths of colors reflected from the object." This means an object has no color if there is nothing reflected off an object.

Again though, shouldn't we need proof of what he says?
 
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Even still if we ask a scientist and (if) he gives us an opinion, that is still an opinion, not a fact.

It doesn't matter whether that scientist's opinion is "fact", only what it is. Your assertion in question was not about the color issue itself. It was about what scientists would say. You said they'd say that scientifically, black is not a color. I showed a clear, strong counterexample.

"The color of an object depends on the wavelengths of colors reflected from the object." This means an object has no color if there is nothing reflected off an object.

No it doesn't. And he doesn't say so, either. Only you do. And he doesn't say black isn't a color, in fact he very much does talk about it as one, using it as the extreme example of dark colors. And in another answer he's clearer:

"dark colors absorb better than light; flat black absorbs best of all."
-- http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00232.htm

Try again?

Again though, shouldn't we need proof of what he says?

No. Again, this is not about the color issue itself but about your assertion of what scientists would say. Besides, you don't prove or disprove definitions.
 
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I went ahead and submitted the question "Scientifically speaking, is black a color?" so we can get this settled out.

I did not once say that he said that bit you bolded, but it's seems like quite logical sense. The color depends on the wavelengths reflected from an object. If the criteria to be / have color is to have reflected wavelengths, how can you have color without these reflected wavelengths?
 
If the criteria to be / have color is to have reflected wavelengths

He didn't say "Whether an object has a color depends on the wavelengths...".
He said "The color of an object depends on the wavelengths...".
Rephrased: "What color an object has depends on the wavelengths...".

Not whether, but which one. And then he used black as an example in the very next paragraph:

"When a black object is illuminated by white light, all wavelengths are absorbed
and none are reflected -- that's why the object appears black."
 
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