Haiyan Zhuang banned for 1-3 years

[scylla]

After I read most of the information, including Haiyan's own story I now will expose my thoughts.

The first thing im surprised about is that Haiyan starts his side of the story with some lines about he threatened a tv maker because he didnt interviewed Chris and that after that he did and Chris should be thankful for this. Haiyan even seems to be proud on it that he arranges this.

Combining this information with the political environment in China. Haiyan's family is probably on an important position of the Chinese hierarchy who always get what they want.

We should not blame this on him because that's the culture where he lives in. The other way arround Haiyan should have known that an international assocation like WCA has other moral values comparing with the standard in China.

So the suspension feels ok with me. A year is not that much in a cubelife and afterall his behaviour didn't match with the friendly kind of speedcubing we want to spread all over the world.

On the other side the WCA should try to see through the difference between the cultures we have in cubeworld. Maybe make apologize is in China more humilating than suicide, so that could be asking to much.

Last point im wondering about. If Hayian is possible to force organizers to put a 2nd round blindfold on the program, he probably is also capable of put pressure on referees during competion. Which would put some questionmarks at his results. All his results were at chinese competitions. Im not saying he cheated, but this is putting suspection on him.

 

[hawkmp4]

3 years? I thought it would be something smaller, like 3 months or so.

I think it's lenient. Threatening officials with physical violence, as far as I'm concerned, should carry a lifetime ban. Especially if it's systematic, like it is with Haiyan. There's no place for that in our community. No matter how good one may be, it shouldn't be tolerated at all. I don't care how good someone may be, I don't want them competing if they're going to act like Haiyan has repeatedly.

EDIT:

We should not blame this on him because that's the culture where he lives in.

Cultural relativism leads to many bad, dangerous things. We should absolutely blame this on Haiyan.

 

[r_517]

"Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."

What makes a CCA record less official than a WCA one?

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

I'm interested in people's feelings on this too. Already, many people have said that they see the CCA as a bad thing. How would you react if Feliks or Erik was knocked off the top spot by a record from the CCA, with no WCA delegate present?

Would you accept it? Would you be suspicious? What is the WCA's standing on this? Would they accept another cubing association's record as official, or are we going to have two different rankings now?

Suddenly I got this thought... Maybe in the future many other cubing organizations will emerge? Like in boxing, there are seven organizations: WBA (World Boxing Association), WBC (World Boxing Council), IBF (International Boxing Federation), WBO (World Boxing Organization), WBF (World Boxing Federation), IBC (International Boxing Council), and IBU (International Boxing Union). Geez.................

Note that all of those are international. CCA is hostile to outside control or any type of influence as far as I can see from reading the Chinese forum.

This.

again my point: i WILL support CCA if and only if this association is set to make most competitors enjoy. however from what we've seen on mf8, this is set just to be against WCA. what's more, only top 8 cubers will have ranks, and foreigners are NOT welcomed. this is not a good organisation from my point of view

 

[jiggy]

Combining this information with the political environment in China. Haiyan's family is probably on an important position of the Chinese hierarchy who always get what they want.

Do you have any actual evidence of this?

Last point im wondering about. If Hayian is possible to force organizers to put a 2nd round blindfold on the program, he probably is also capable of put pressure on referees during competion. Which would put some questionmarks at his results. All his results were at chinese competitions. Im not saying he cheated, but this is putting suspection on him.

I have no doubt that his past results are legit. As far as I'm aware, Haiyan has not been investigated for cheating. I get what you're trying to say, but this is a bit too speculative for me.

 

[r_517]

On the other side the WCA should try to see through the difference between the cultures we have in cubeworld. Maybe make apologize is in China more humilating than suicide, so that could be asking to much.

lol

Last point im wondering about. If Hayian is possible to force organizers to put a 2nd round blindfold on the program, he probably is also capable of put pressure on referees during competion. Which would put some questionmarks at his results. All his results were at chinese competitions. Im not saying he cheated, but this is putting suspection on him.

we do trust his results. he IS a good cuber, but not a good man.

 

[Joker]

Well. He was being stupid.
But remember 1 year IF he says sorry. Otherwise 3.
But even a year I think is a little much...yeah I'd go with 3-6 months...

 

[zugohugo2]

You have no Idea what Chinese grownups are like.......They are not like you guys with your grounding and all that little children stuff. They yell at you and sometimes beat you with a stick ;D

 

[amostay2004]

I hear so much about physical threats but have no idea how serious these threats really are. Is it the 'hey gimme 2 rounds or i'll kick your @$$' kind or the 'have thugs surround him and force him to comply' kind? If it's more towards the latter (ie serious threats) then 3 years is just lenient.

 

[qqwref]

I thought this length of time would lead to getting the CCA up and running properly. I can't help but think a better compromise would be available.

This divide is bad news.

This. I think the punishment is a bad situation from a political/diplomatic standpoint. Banning Haiyan for so long will just make him more angry at the WCA, and lead to the CCA starting up and being an explicit rival/enemy organization. I think a more lenient and less punitive decision could have a much better effect - for instance, maybe a ban for a year or two which would be brought down to just one month if he agreed (with proof) to start going to a therapist about anger issues. With something like that, maybe it would look silly to leave the organization entirely. But if you say "we want an apology, but even that is not enough, you will still have to leave for a whole year" - I think that gives the message that the WCA really doesn't want him in the community at all.

Besides, I accept that Haiyan's behavior would cause people in China to stop cubing - I've been in a similar situation but the cubing community in my country is a lot more localized so it was not as much of a problem - but I think the other banned competitor hurt cubing a lot more. No outsider would expect our organization to be able to keep a firm hold on everyone's personality, that's unreasonable, and every sport has people who get angry and care too much. But if you saw someone talking to the news repeatedly, representing cubing in his own country and abroad, having his videos all over the internet as examples of the highest level of skill... and then you found out that he cheated? That someone in the community kept getting records for many months and we didn't think to check until much later? That makes our organization look amateurish and ineffective. I don't condone being threatening and aggressive, but to me the two situations demand significantly different ban lengths.

 

[TMOY]

Suddenly I got this thought... Maybe in the future many other cubing organizations will emerge? Like in boxing, there are seven organizations: WBA (World Boxing Association), WBC (World Boxing Council), IBF (International Boxing Federation), WBO (World Boxing Organization), WBF (World Boxing Federation), IBC (International Boxing Council), and IBU (International Boxing Union). Geez.................

Maybe Haiyan has mistaken the WCA for just another boxing organization. That would explain why he fights with everybody.

 

[Daniel Wu]

Suddenly I got this thought... Maybe in the future many other cubing organizations will emerge? Like in boxing, there are seven organizations: WBA (World Boxing Association), WBC (World Boxing Council), IBF (International Boxing Federation), WBO (World Boxing Organization), WBF (World Boxing Federation), IBC (International Boxing Council), and IBU (International Boxing Union). Geez.................

Maybe Haiyan has mistaken the WCA for just another boxing organization. That would explain why he fights with everybody.

Sorry but http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=428997&postcount=63. I had to.

 

[freshcuber]

"Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."

What makes a CCA record less official than a WCA one?

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

It is one thing to show that competition protocol was breached and there was an irregularity in the regulations. It is a whole different level to show that someone was deliberately cheating.

It's annoying that the intent cannot be proven. Thanks for pointing that out.

CCA records wouldn't count because they're from a national cubing society. I don't believe they allow international competitors into their competitions (I may be wrong about that) and since they don't allow international competitors, records shouldn't be allowed on the international stage. They formed the CCA, the Chinese Cubing Association as opposed to the WCA, World Cubing Associtation. This implies that all competition will be kept within their borders and if that's the case all records should as well. If they were trying to create another international cubing society like the International Cubing Federation, or something similar, and allowed foriegn competitors I would have a different view.

 

[Daniel Wu]

Not to mention that they're completely trashing the WCA's rules just because they were made by the WCA. I read something about unlimited inspection time on the chinese forum. I'll go see if I can find it again.

EDIT:

我倒觉得反正没必要遵守WCA的那套规则，思路可以更开阔一些。​

Close enough.
​

 

[Olivér Perge]

In my opinion a year ban is not that long. Just think about how many times you compete a year. If you compete like every 3 months, then a 6 months ban is not that long at all.

Also, a punishment should be bad for the competitor if it's deserved and also an example for the rest.

Personally I don't know all the details of the incident, but I believe that the WCA made the decision after thinking through very well.

On the other side: The thing is that he is amazing at blind, should make the punishment even harder not the opposite. He is an idol for many cubers, a lot of cubers follow him and he should not behave like this. Great talent comes with great responsibility.

 

[Deleted member 4527]

Maybe make apologize is in China more humilating than suicide, so that could be asking to much.

lolno

Regarding the CCA, from what I'm reading it's actually not set to be against the WCA, it's just the Chinese's own cubing association, but from the replies I saw there is a some kind of unfriendilness towards WCA by the Chinese cubers, which I really don't want to see.
My view: One organization(ie WCA) that holds comps for EVERYONE and EVERYWHERE.

You have no Idea what Chinese grownups are like.......They are not like you guys with your grounding and all that little children stuff. They yell at you and sometimes beat you with a stick ;D

um what?

Also, can someone prove that the CCA is set up to be against the WCA and that Haiyan is trying to get WCA banned in China? I'm not seeing any of this anywhere?

所以，
无论是国际比赛的后备缓冲也好
国人独立的协会联赛也好
出发点是普及魔方竞速概念，让更多魔友有机会体验竞技乐趣

这个已经酝酿已久了
只是赶上了一些事件，所以被误读为“干掉WCA”
包括我在内的几个人，成立CCA的想法远远早于杭州赛

换句话说，真要挤兑WCA，办法很多，而且都立竿见影，且不留痕迹
成立CCA是最麻烦，最累，最没效率的一种！

This is from Fubo Wang

EDIT:

Not to mention that they're completely trashing the WCA's rules just because they were made by the WCA. I read something about unlimited inspection time on the chinese forum. I'll go see if I can find it again.

EDIT:

我倒觉得反正没必要遵守WCA的那套规则，思路可以更开阔一些。​

Close enough.
​

That was not posted by those people from the CAA, who said that they will keep the good things by WCA and improve upon the bad ones.

 

[Kirjava]

"Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."

What makes a CCA record less official than a WCA one?

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

CCA records wouldn't count because they're from a national cubing society. I don't believe they allow international competitors into their competitions (I may be wrong about that) and since they don't allow international competitors, records shouldn't be allowed on the international stage. They formed the CCA, the Chinese Cubing Association as opposed to the WCA, World Cubing Associtation. This implies that all competition will be kept within their borders and if that's the case all records should as well. If they were trying to create another international cubing society like the International Cubing Federation, or something similar, and allowed foriegn competitors I would have a different view.

Your answer had nothing to do with my question.

 

[Daniel Wu]

I see half the people trying to get it to be a domestic cube league type thing under the WCA and the other half are being ethnocentric xenophobes. But whatever. What happens happens and I can't do anything about it.

 

[freshcuber]

"Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."

What makes a CCA record less official than a WCA one?

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

CCA records wouldn't count because they're from a national cubing society. I don't believe they allow international competitors into their competitions (I may be wrong about that) and since they don't allow international competitors, records shouldn't be allowed on the international stage. They formed the CCA, the Chinese Cubing Association as opposed to the WCA, World Cubing Associtation. This implies that all competition will be kept within their borders and if that's the case all records should as well. If they were trying to create another international cubing society like the International Cubing Federation, or something similar, and allowed foriegn competitors I would have a different view.

Your answer had nothing to do with my question.

It's a national cubing society. How can you call it a world record if the whole world isn't allowed to compete for it in their competitions? That'd be like me sitting in my room and calling my rather ordinary, less-than-average solves a world record. If I'm the only one allowed to compete for it then I'll have a world record with every PB.

 

[Kirjava]

When did I call it a world record?

 

[Deleted member 4527]

It depends on your definition of official.