Clean WCA by deleting all blindfold results & records!

[guusrs]

Hi cubers,

The BLD-cheaters-threat has been closed, which is a good thing. What was clear to me that cheating in blindfolding is very easy. Last weekend at the Benelux Open I tested some blindfolds for the first time in my life and I could peek under every of them, even when others (Arnaud, Kai, Joel) were convinced I couldn't peek anymore. Suddenly I could solve cubes blindfolded although I never practiced. It must be the shape of my nose......

My point is that, when cheating is so easy there's no blindfold-cuber for which we are 100% sure they didn't peek under their blindfold. Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. I would have done it myself! Another example: when I have to believe my 14-year old daughter, almost every schoolmate of her cheats sometimes during tests because teachers did not check well enough? Which to blame? The teacher or the teenagers? Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!

Same story holds for cubing. The WCA invented not-cheat-proof blindfold rules. It was just a game, wasn't it? We based fairness on trust. But we were getting more and more serious over the time, now you can become a hero, a worldchampion, win money, gain respect of others, being selected as the "cuber of the year", getting friends. You're whole life is based on just all that. Currently the whole cubing community is focusing on finding proof of cheating of only one person. We're talking about banning him from our beloved community. This is very unfair and it can seriously damage this teenager's life, probably always afraid of showing himself to his friends again or even in public at all, just for doing something that is very common to almost everyone, especially for young people, and is based in human nature: making advantage of poorly invented rules to get attention, gain respect and get social contacts. Yes, it's called cheating, common to most of us and, I repeat, not a crime.

The only way to create a clean community and not ruin anyone's life now and in the future, is to delete all blindfolds results of all WCA competitions in the past and start all over again with new blindfold rules, without cheating possibilities. So new records, new rankings new personal bests, etc. By this we also accept cheating under the "old-rules" as a normal human behaviour which people couldn't resist while the game was getting too serious. With that we will also gain back the return, a nice teenager, a great cuber, which inspired many of us.
We will also prevent forum- discussions about cheating the way we had last couple of weeks. I think that's worth a lot ..

Gus

 

[Stefan]

Foreword: Joel's new evidence is proof for me, eliminating my doubts.

We're talking about banning him from our beloved community. This is very unfair

He kept lying to us even after the WCA gave him an honest opportunity to confess, and even after he had seen the first reconstructions. And then the investigation also took a lot of time and energy from a lot of people, and put us in a quite awkward position. It's quite obvious that he doesn't respect the community, so it's *not* unfair if the community doesn't respect him anymore.

And this is not a school test, where you cheat so you don't fail. This is at the highest level of worldwide cubing, there's a lot of respect and also money involved. Matyas stole what other people deserved.

I *can* accept lying to prevent bad things, at least in some cases. I can *not* accept lying just to egoistically gain good stuff. The latter, especially of a magnitude like we have here, definitely is a crime in my opinion.

it can seriously damage this teenager's life

I don't care. The community is more important than him.

The only way to create a clean community and not ruin anyone's in the now and in the future, is to delete all blindfolds results of all WCA competitions in the past and start all over again with new blindfold rules, without cheating possibilities.

Here I'm in a dilemma. I do agree that this would be good for having "clean" records (though as Lucas showed already, there are many ways to cheat, and eliminating cheating with 100% certainty would require a lot of impractical overhead work). On the other hand, I don't want all the honest cubers punished.

 

[AvGalen]

The WCA has a lot of rules against cheating. All of them rely on direct interference by judges which doesn't happen very often. Many people stop the timer incorrectly (either on purpose or by accident) and get away with it. According to the WCA-rules that means your solve has been "accepted" as a correct solve. I don't think that there is anything in the regulations that allows the WCA to change results after a competition is over (except for mutually agreed corrections/typo's)

I am very much opposed to starting over with results. As I stated above cheating isn't restricted to blindfolded cubing so why clean just those results? Michael Fung retired from cubing, but his results are still among the worlds best. By starting over his achievements would be lost and people would think Erik/Mátyás was the first person to break 60 on 4x4x4 average. Another consequence would be that you couldn't find trends in the results/improvements anymore. (How many people were sub 15 in 2003 / 2004 / 2005 / 2006 / 2007 / 2008)

Maybe the WCA could have a list of cheaters and the results can be filtered according to that list. It would still be problematic because cheating in one event should/shouldn't (note my doubt) mean the results of other events get filtered too.

I agree with Stefan on the fact that the community is really important, but I also agree with Guus that banning can have a serious impact on a live. These decision should be taken very responsively by the WCA.

 

[tim]

My point is that, when cheating is so easy there's no blindfold-cuber for which we are 100% sure they didn't peek under their blindfold. Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. I would have done it myself! Another example: when I have to believe my 14-year old daughter, almost every schoolmate of her cheats sometimes during tests because teachers did not check well enough? Which to blame? The teacher or the teenagers? Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!

That's ridiculous.
"Dad, a black man stole my bike." - "What? Damn niggers!"

P.S.: I don't care about my official bld records, they are bad and i can easily break them, but it's a shame, that you suspect all bld cubers of cheating...

 

[Erik]

Cleaning all BLD results seems like a good idea to me, although I'm sure other people who focus on BLD a lot probably would disagree (which I totally understand, it's just that I don't care a lot about my own BLD results so far).

To Arnaud, stopping a timer incorrect doesn't really affect your times in a positive way. The only event that could be on is magic and the WR's for that are clean. I think we all agree that cheating a whole attempt (like on BLD) is far and far worse than cheating with stopping a timer wrong, which is mostly caused by not knowing the rules very well. Therefore, it would be ridicilous to delete ALL WCA results ever, people like Minh Thai to name someone would not be amused.

I think that Guus is right that it's very tempting to (especially but not only) younger people to cheat if they found a way to do it. And for those who all think now: 'pff I would not do it' I can say that most of you don't know yourself very well..

It's a bridge too far though to blame the WCA for the fact someone cheats because they make it easy, in the end it's still the person itself who decides. In the case that someone cheated I think it's logical he/she would do it on every tournament including the WC and win money. It's a bit harsh to call him/her a criminal and a thief for that in my opinion especially if the person would be underage.

 

[Johannes91]

Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!

That means I'm not human ...

And for those who all think now: 'pff I would not do it' I can say that most of you don't know yourself very well..

... and apparently I don't know myself very well. Interesting.

Or maybe you guys are just generalizing too much? Not everyone is like that. I want to believe that there are still some honest people in this world.

 

[Erik]

Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!

That means I'm not human ...

And for those who all think now: 'pff I would not do it' I can say that most of you don't know yourself very well..

... and apparently I don't know myself very well. Interesting.

Or maybe you guys are just generalizing too much? Not everyone is like that. I want to believe that there are still some honest people in this world.

doh I said 'most' I know there are some honest people too

 

[alexc]

To erase all the BLD records might not be a bad idea. However, I think the WCA has to update the official rules and say that regular blindfolds are illegal, because if they don't, the alleged cheating could happen all over again. I think they need to make it a rule to where goggle type things as blindfolds. It is virtually impossible to cheat with them. They are the cheap to make. Just buy some goggles and spray them inside with black paint, put on electrical tape, etc. And they are the closest to what we have now, so it wouldn't be all that hard to transition to using them, I think. As for Matyas or anyone being cheaters, I don't know if there is enough evidence to prove anything. If Matyas or anyone else seriously has cheated, then shame on them. Especially Matyas. A lot of people looked up to him, and for him to be a fraud is not cool. If the WCA would decide to start over, but not change the blindfolds, then the judges just have to be way more strict with hand checks, etc.

 

[Joël]

Hi Guus!

Let me fist say I really respect the way you look at this. You understand that he’s a young kid, and that he made a mistake. I too agree that everybody deserves a second chance, especially Matyas.

I respect that you are talking about the human aspects of cheating, and the human aspect in this particular case. This is why I wanted to become a lawyer once. Every criminal is also a human being, and every crime has it’s own story.

I also agree that wiping out the complete list of records would be a good idea. I would not mind it at all. We can save the ‘old records’, so that people can still refer to their records by saying it’s their National, Continental or World record “under the old blindfold rules” (as long as it’s not broken, I guess). The records, as they are now, are not totally useless, in my eyes.

I disagree with other things in your post. The comparison with a school test does not hold water. Sure, kids cheat at school tests (the best way to get higher up in life is to take an example from people who are better than you), but with that, they do not fool so many people at the same time. They don’t set world records in such tests. They don’t get on stage to shake Mr. Rubiks hand afterwards. They don’t receive 2000 euro’s of prize money. They don’t push Tyson Mao off the podium at a World Championship. They don’t take 15 cubes and pose in front of the camara’s with a smile.

I am convinced that in serious sports, when honour and money is involved, many people will tend to be a lot more honest (including all the kids who cheat at school tests). In those situations, you reach whole new level of cheating. People have a sense of pride. And people have a sense of justice.

I think that what Matyas has done for such a long time is disgusting. Will this damage his life? I don’t really know. But come on! If you mess with 100’s of people for such a long period of time, it is bound to come out someday. He should have seen it coming.

I agree that he should have a second chance. But right now, I personally don’t feel like meeting him the next competition, or the one after that. So a temporary ban is ok with me.

- Joël.

 

[MiloD]

I like the old records/new records idea.

I hope he doesn't decide to give up cubing all together. He must have been crapping in his pants the last couple of weeks. I think a temporary ban, removal of all his records is sufficient punishment in addition to worldwide shame in the cubing community. Hopefully we'll get to watch him epically get all of his records back.

and tim can you edit post#4...you're making us Americans very squeamish

 

[AvGalen]

First: I have still not heard anything official from the WCA.

Second: It seems like everyone wants to take away ALL his records, but shouldn't that be just that blindfolded records?

 

[Pedro]

Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. I would have done it myself!

Why are you convinced of that? Just because you would have done it, doesn't mean other people did

Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!

No way. Cheating when given the opportunity is not a general rule...is a fail of character...

We're talking about banning him from our beloved community. This is very unfair and it can seriously damage this teenager's life...

is it fair that he cheats?
that he gets media attention, praise from a lot of people, lots of medals, certificates, titles, money and so?
is it fair that he makes some people give up on bld or cubing at all, because they think they'll never reach his times?

no, I don't think that is fair...

Second: It seems like everyone wants to take away ALL his records, but shouldn't that be just that blindfolded records?

nope, just his bld records...

 

[MiloD]

Second: It seems like everyone wants to take away ALL his records, but shouldn't that be just that blindfolded records?

It makes the comeback that much more epic...

 

[Stefan]

and tim can you edit post#4...you're making us Americans very squeamish

Is this better?

 

[MiloD]

I guess?

I obviously understand what hes saying...however, there is a certain word in that post (which word could I be talking about??) which could be easily changed to be less offensive while still achieving the desired effect.
;
oh wow this is totally Stefan. My hero!

 

[Mike Hughey]

Hey, I like my "records" - don't touch them!

Seriously, I'm happy I got some blindfold solves in competition, and BLD is the only thing I'm half-good at, and yet I know there's a chance I might never solve another one in competition - it's awfully easy to DNF, especially in competition. I can't get to that many competitions, and I'd hate to lose my times and not be able to put them back. So I hope that we will keep the old records somewhere, so I can at least show people I really solved 3x3x3, 4x4x4, and 5x5x5 BLD in competition once (even if some people think those solves are suspect under the old rules).

Also, what does this do for immediately coming up competitions? I'm going to Chattahoochee - if we haven't sorted this out by then, does it effectively mean the BLD part of the competition doesn't count? I'm practicing hard for it - I'm hoping to halve my times on the 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 (probably overambitious, but at least I can hope), and I'd hate to think I'm working towards something that's just going to be deleted anyway.

If we do decide to delete the records, please decide on new rules as quickly as possible - I want Chattahoochie to count!

 

[tim]

I obviously understand what hes saying...however, there is a certain word in that post (which word could I be talking about??) which could be easily changed to be less offensive while still achieving the desired effect.

Did you mean "niggers"? I don't see any problems with this word.
1.) it's a metaphor/comparison
2.) it's a dialog between two people who don't exist (just in my mind ).

 

[Karthik]

I definitely don't want the records to be deleted.We have had only one competition here in India and I worked hard during the Summer to save money for the flight tickets to attend the competition.Not to forget all the hours of practise I put in especially for BLD.
Cubers in Europe and US may not mind getting their records deleted because they will anyway get to go to another competition very soon.But please think of cubers in places like India, Philippines, Brasil,etc..where number of competitions are very less.

Also, what does this do for immediately coming up competitions?

Since this whole issue had started before Indian Open, John Louis made sure that a paper was always kept between the cuber and the cube during BLD execution.I think that is a good temporary solution till WCA gives it's verdict.

 

[Pedro]

Since this whole issue had started before Indian Open, John Louis made sure that a paper was always kept between the cuber and the cube during BLD execution.I think that is a good temporary solution till WCA gives it's verdict.

yep, that's the temporary solution, until we find better blindfolds

oh, and agree with you

what about people who got a successful bld solve and will not go to a competition soon? or never more?

 

[Johannes91]

I also agree that wiping out the complete list of records would be a good idea. I would not mind it at all. We can save the ‘old records’, so that people can still refer to their records by saying it’s their National, Continental or World record “under the old blindfold rules” (as long as it’s not broken, I guess). The records, as they are now, are not totally useless, in my eyes.

I don't like this idea at all, even though I'm not that good at (or interested in) at BLD solving. It has already been pointed out that preventing cheating completely is practically impossible. If later someone manages to cheat under new regulations, should all records be deleted again?

And what about other events, like 3x3x3 speedsolving? What if someone gets to see the scramble before his own attempt (like taking a video/picture of someone else's solve) and then memorizes a short solution and gets a very good time? Should all cubers' 3x3x3 results be deleted, because it turns out that cheating was possible and you can't trust anyone?