The DNF master

I win DNF averages in OH.
100%, which is sort of crazy, because those are the only DNF's in OH I've ever gotten. I usually average about 1 minute. I guess the pressure got to me.
 
StefanPochmann said:
Mike Hughey said:
No, it just looks like he doesn't rank high enough to get on any of the lists.
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He led the bld dnf percentage list I made for Jude, but I left him out because I only wanted real dnfs (well, at least as far as I know). In my opinion it'd make more sense to turn cheating to DNS rather than DNF anyway.
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You forgot to get out this guy too then: http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2009WANG13
Or at least his results up to now, due to these 'overruled by the WCA DNF's' because of admitted cheating.
 
Erik said:
You forgot to get out this guy too then: http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2009WANG13
Or at least his results up to now, due to these 'overruled by the WCA DNF's' because of admitted cheating.
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You mean on the WCA statistics page? Well, that's where I saw him, and he was the reason for me to start this thread because I was surprised and didn't know the explanation. Like I said, I'd prefer these results to be DNS anyway. In my opinion, DNF is for when the cuber tries but fails, and DNS is for not trying. And in case of cheating I'd include "for not trying legitimately". Plus, I really don't want to hardcode a special exception for a certain person in certain competitions in certain events. This should be handled in a data-driven way. The statistic I posted here was different, that was a partly manual one-time thing. Long story short, I didn't forget leaving him out, I decided against it.
 
Ah I see what you mean there then. Yes I think DNS should be a better 'format' of changing a result like that. DNF is how I feel it indeed the thing that you did an attempt but failed to do it successful, DNS is just for everything else since you just didn't seriously start to solve the puzzle. WCA 2010 regulations?

@ Oliver: Let's just assume that we win :)
 
I agree with Stefan: DNS is for when you don't do a solve at all, and if you've disqualified the solve itself because of cheating then, from the perspective of the scoreboards, the competitor didn't do the solve to begin with. There is no solve anymore.
 
I think that in BLD if caught cheating it should be a DNF but in the case of being caught cheating from during inspection i could understand a DNS because he didn't actually start the solve correctly. But in bld say I just took my blindfold off in the middle of a solve and did some moves then put it back on now if my judge noticed that would be a DNF but if my judge didn't notice and found out after the fact that would be cheating and you want a DNS for that which is confusing to me at least.
 
keemy said:
I think that in BLD if caught cheating it should be a DNF but in the case of being caught cheating from during inspection i could understand a DNS because he didn't actually start the solve correctly. But in bld say I just took my blindfold off in the middle of a solve and did some moves then put it back on now if my judge noticed that would be a DNF but if my judge didn't notice and found out after the fact that would be cheating and you want a DNS for that which is confusing to me at least.
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The problem is that when someone has all DNFs it looks like they just fail hard at cubing, when instead they have been disqualified. The way I see it DNF is for when they go up and do a solve and fail at it, whereas DNS is when they either never did the solve or the solve was retroactively annulled (i.e. it never existed). For your example it should be DNF because they realized (after the fact) that the solver failed hard at actually solving - the solve itself wouldn't be annulled, they just changed the result later on. (Doing moves after you take off the BLD results in a DNF of the solve, not a total disqualification.) Changing a solve to a DNS would only be done when you find out someone cheated and you want to remove their solves from the database.
 
Why not just have a different designation for disqualified solves that function just like a DNS/DNF but distinguish between failing at cubing and cheating?
 
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qqwref said:
keemy said:
I think that in BLD if caught cheating it should be a DNF but in the case of being caught cheating from during inspection i could understand a DNS because he didn't actually start the solve correctly. But in bld say I just took my blindfold off in the middle of a solve and did some moves then put it back on now if my judge noticed that would be a DNF but if my judge didn't notice and found out after the fact that would be cheating and you want a DNS for that which is confusing to me at least.
Click to expand...

The problem is that when someone has all DNFs it looks like they just fail hard at cubing, when instead they have been disqualified. The way I see it DNF is for when they go up and do a solve and fail at it, whereas DNS is when they either never did the solve or the solve was retroactively annulled (i.e. it never existed). For your example it should be DNF because they realized (after the fact) that the solver failed hard at actually solving - the solve itself wouldn't be annulled, they just changed the result later on. (Doing moves after you take off the BLD results in a DNF of the solve, not a total disqualification.) Changing a solve to a DNS would only be done when you find out someone cheated and you want to remove their solves from the database.
Click to expand...

How about a "DQ" tag? Seems to solve the problems and is a more accurate way of labeling it.
 
Kian said:
How about a "DQ" tag? Seems to solve the problems and is a more accurate way of labeling it.
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I like that. Though I just searched the regulations for "DNF" and found:
9f4) DNF (Did Not Finish) is the result if the solve was disqualified or unfinished.
So it explicitly says to call it DNF. On the other hand, it makes explicit that DNF covers exaxtly two cases. And if you know you want to cover exactly two cases and you can actually distinguish them (I think so here), then using two different codes rather than cramming the two cases into one code seems appropriate. Problem would be that we can't really change all previous results to it, not so much because of regulations but because except for a few cases, we just don't know what was disqualified.

For the matter in hand, if that DNF record annoys too much, I guess I could handle it internally. Have two different internal result values for DNF, distinguishing the two cases, but showing both as DNF. Oh well... other things more important I'd say. But... good point and good idea for future regulations, maybe.
 
How about this, Stefan: at the moment we only put the DQ tag for solves that were retroactively disqualified, i.e. after the competition the decision was made to invalidate them. It should be relatively easy to find the list of all instances of this since they usually happen on a large scale (i.e. all of the person's solves are DNF). Once this is done we can start using DQ for all future solves that are for some reason disqualified.
 
qqwref said:
Once this is done we can start using DQ for all future solves that are for some reason disqualified.
Click to expand...

The only thing I would say about this is that disqualification for non-cheating reasons, like accidentally touching with two hands in OH, going over 17 seconds of inspection, etc.. should be stated in the regulations as DNF.
 
You bumped...for that? :/
Is this discussion something that someone should bring up on the WCA boards?
 
At first I thought perhaps he didn't know how to solve the cube, entered, and just sat there turning hopelessly hoping he'd solve it.

But then I read the issue statement :p
 
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