Controversial: Table abuse in OH should be banned

[SH03L4C3]

I find assembling a cube one-handed easier than solving it, so I smash my cube on the table, breaking the cube so I can assemble it. I will attach a video of my habit:

hgsdkjgGANTHROWCSH.mp4

drive.google.com

Ill admit, I'm not proud of it, but it gets good averages.

 

[j727s]

I kind of think its too late to remove it because a lot of the records have already been set with it

 

[qwr]

Aren't there like 20 other threads about this over the past decade

 

[IsThatA4x4]

Aren't there like 20 other threads about this over the past decade

Probably.
This would make the funniest sub-forum ever

 

[Thom S.]

Are you performing moves that are impossible/really inefficient to do without the table? I guess no, that was my point.

Well, I use the table do do U, R, F, B, L, D, M moves, so I never lift the cube, but I HAVE tried M moves completely without the table and it worked, so my point still stands.

Banning using the table would draw Roux away from OH and that would make OH really bland with only CFOP being used because CFOP = always good. Do you want that?

 

[UNO_FASY]

cope

wtf CFOP OH abused the table

 

[Sevilzww]

wtf CFOP OH abused the table

not unfair advantage lol!!!

 

[IsThatA4x4]

Spoiler

Or you could just use Petrus

 

[Jupilogy]

Am I the only one who remembers that table abuse used to be illegal before the WCA specifically decided to legalise it?

They're not going to change their mind; allowing table abuse was a deliberate choice and not an accident. Just accept it.

 

[xyzzy]

Am I the only one who remembers that table abuse used to be illegal before the WCA specifically decided to legalise it?

Let's see:
2004-2007: explicitly banned
2008-2010: explicitly allowed
2013: no mention (editing oversight)
2014 onwards: explicitly allowed (in guidelines, not the main regulations document)

It was about fourteen years ago when table abuse became explicitly allowed – legal table abuse is older than quite a number of the members here, come to think of it.

 

[Swagrid]

legal table abuse is older than quite a number of the members here

Legal table abuse, unlike most cubers on Discord, is old enough to use Discord.

 

[Mike Hughey]

Let's see:
2004-2007: explicitly banned

I loved that just one hand was allowed for inspection as well as solving. I've always tried to follow this rule in competition personally as well.

 

[TheSilverBeluga]

WCA regulations are, and should be, made independently of any method meta that currently exists. Being a CFOPer versus being a Rouxer is not an immutable characteristic; complaining that a regulation isn't fair to one of them is like complaining that a card game tournament isn't fair to someone who brought a bad deck. The "under fair and equal conditions" part of the mission statement is to make sure that people aren't at a disadvantage because of things they can't change. A rule that would break this would be something like "all 3x3x3 puzzles should measure 56x56x56 mm," which causes people with small hands to have an inherent disadvantage.

You also have a fairly ludicrous point that CFOPers (you mention Max Park specifically) actually lose time by using the table. So here's a question for you: if this is the case, why do they do it?
This is admittedly a rhetorical question, because you don't lose time doing it. The alternative isn't not regripping, it's regripping without using the table. Which is slower.

I am also somewhat frustrated by your response to many of these arguments:

Whether you like it or no, table abuse does not make much sense.

You made points, they made counterpoints, and you didn't even address them, but instead stated that your opinion is correct; this is not phrased as a statement of opinion.

 

[xyzzy]

WCA regulations are, and should be, made independently of any method meta that currently exists.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this statement in particular shouldn't be taken as a given.

The WCA exists to serve the cubing community, and as such, it absolutely should take into account what the cubers actually do in solves. For instance, hypothetically, introducing a new regulation at this point that would greatly advantage one popular method over another popular method (… e.g. banning table abuse) would almost certainly not happen unless it greatly improves some other aspect of the competition (e.g. does it make judging more consistent?). However, if said new regulation somehow only affects oddball methods barely used by anyone, there should be a much lower barrier to introducing it.

It's interesting that you bring up card games. My understanding is that when certain cards are discovered to be too overpowered / game-breaking, especially in unforeseen ways, they do get banned for later tourneys. It might not necessarily be that players are unfairly disadvantaged (assuming it's not a rare card, everyone could just stuff it in their deck to even the field), but that it makes the tournament less interesting, fun or exciting. To be clear, I don't think this specific situation is a good analogy to banning table abuse, but it's some precedent that rule changes can be made to accommodate changes in the meta.

 

[TheSilverBeluga]

I agree with the rest of your post, but this statement in particular shouldn't be taken as a given.

The WCA exists to serve the cubing community, and as such, it absolutely should take into account what the cubers actually do in solves. For instance, hypothetically, introducing a new regulation at this point that would greatly advantage one popular method over another popular method (… e.g. banning table abuse) would almost certainly not happen unless it greatly improves some other aspect of the competition (e.g. does it make judging more consistent?). However, if said new regulation somehow only affects oddball methods barely used by anyone, there should be a much lower barrier to introducing it.

It's interesting that you bring up card games. My understanding is that when certain cards are discovered to be too overpowered / game-breaking, especially in unforeseen ways, they do get banned for later tourneys. It might not necessarily be that players are unfairly disadvantaged (assuming it's not a rare card, everyone could just stuff it in their deck to even the field), but that it makes the tournament less interesting, fun or exciting. To be clear, I don't think this specific situation is a good analogy to banning table abuse, but it's some precedent that rule changes can be made to accommodate changes in the meta.

You make some good points, and I probably should have elaborated more. What I was trying to say was that the regulations shouldn't play favorites - given that I don't think roux table abuse is a whole lot worse than CFOP table abuse, his argument comes across as saying that table abuse should be banned because rouxers use it, which isn't helped by the way he phrases things.

At the time it was common knowledge that Roux for OH is literally the worst method you can choose, because you had to perform M-slice moves with ancient hardware.

But they didn't stop there and at some point they found a way to take advantage of WCA regulations that were written over a decade earlier.

Also, regarding the card game comparison: yeah, it's not a perfect analogy, but I think the key difference is that card games are a zero-sum game, whereas speedcubing is not. The times you get with your method are not made worse by more people choosing to use a faster method than you. If speedcubing were a competitive meta like a card game where strategy dominance is a concern, CFOP would have been banned 15 years ago lol

 

[abunickabhi]

Is there table abuse in Mehta method?

 

[Thom S.]

Is there table abuse in Mehta method?

Asking the real questions.

 

[Silky]

Is there table abuse in Mehta method?

Is there table abuse in 5-style?

 

[abunickabhi]

Is there table abuse in 5-style?

Table abuse is not enough. There is finger abuse in 5-style. Doing 5-style fingertricks for a long period of time can give you carpal tunnel.

 

[cuberswoop]

Well honestly, if you argue Roux users are illegal because of the M moves they need to execute, some OH CFOP users also do M moves, and they need the table to assist them too. For example, H perm requires M moves, and if you don't use the M move alg, it would significantly lower your times. And I don't agree with OH being OH with a table. The table is not turning the cube for you, it's still your hand doing it, the table only acts as an assist.

Just ban every method except for Petrus.