ZZ Cubers

[AlphaSheep]

@AlphaSheep I've got the PLLs down now and have started looking at/learning about COLL. Out of curiosity, why did you recommend them in the order you did?

I see there are only 4 COLL-H cases; I don't run into H very often but it seems like it'd be easy to get them out the way? Still, I've started with T as you recommend but am considering learning H next instead of U and then proceed with the order you recommended unless there is a specific reason you suggest learning H last?

T has the easiest set of algs in my opinion. I then suggest U and L as a few of these are inverses of T cases. I suggest learning Pi before H last because they're more likely to appear. I recommend leaving Sune and Antisune for last because the recognition for them is easier once you're comfortable with all of the others.

 

[pglewis]

On normal 3x3, Sune/Anti-Sune is fast enough to make up for a bad PLL.

But that 1:12 chance at PLL skip tho, for the sake of singles!

 

[xyzzy]

But that 1:12 chance at PLL skip tho, for the sake of singles!

Depending on which COLL algs you use, it could be pretty easy to predict whether you can force an EPLL skip. The ones I use are:

Sune/Antisune
Niklas
F R' U2 R F' R' F U2 F' R
L' U2 L U2 R U' L' U (L R')
(L' R) U R' U' L U2 R U2 R'
R' U2 L U' R U L' U R' U R

Sune/Antisune are pretty easy: there's a pair and it's adjacent to an opposite or adjacent edge (respectively). The diag-swap case one is similar to an Antisune (pair + adjacent edge). Niklas and the other L3C alg both have a full 2×2 block. The remaining two algs have alternating colours on the block (like a Z perm). If you see a block / pair / "Z perm", you can tell if you can force an EPLL skip by using COLL, without even recognising the COLL case.

 

[RonM]

Well I think I've mostly memorized COLL-T, finally; just need to find a COLL trainer/scrambler to drill recognition and the algs. Any recommendations?

Also, did you guys find the COLLs harder to memorize than PLLs too? Not necessarily the algs, but which alg goes with which case? I find it harder without each COLL-T case having its own easy-to-remember/identify name compared to PLL.

 

[GenTheSnail]

Well I think I've mostly memorized COLL-T, finally; just need to find a COLL trainer/scrambler to drill recognition and the algs. Any recommendations?

Also, did you guys find the COLLs harder to memorize than PLLs too? Not necessarily the algs, but which alg goes with which case? I find it harder without each COLL-T case having its own easy-to-remember/identify name compared to PLL.

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/zbll-trainer.63572/
http://bestsiteever.ru/zbll/
You can select the cases that your COLL algs solve, or just select the entire set so you can get a bit more variation in the order of cases presented.

And you can use it for ZBLL too!

I can't say much about COLL memorization, it seems like it was a while ago.
When I learn ZBLLs, I give them names based on their blocks (I use block recognition). So this case would be sort of like: U-diag swap-righty Jperm-hold with Jperm on left.
All are mental names, I don't usually say them out loud.

 

[RonM]

I can't say much about COLL memorization, it seems like it was a while ago.
When I learn ZBLLs, I give them names based on their blocks (I use block recognition). So this case would be sort of like: U-diag swap-righty Jperm-hold with Jperm on left.
All are mental names, I don't usually say them out loud.

I've been doing much the same, but I was just hoping there was more standardized names for them. I refer to them as "[Direction]y block"... such as "Lefty Block", "Fronty Block". I do say them out loud though, I figured out with PLL having the auditory mental trigger sometimes helps recall a freshly learned alg when I blank out on the first couple moves to activate muscle memory. The real problem comes when I start introducing myself to the U set; if I use the same naming pattern I end up mixing up the T and U algs. I'm guessing that this problem will mostly disappear with practice, much like it did with distinguishing between the different G perms.

The trainer is awesome, by the way! I had found http://timothyaveni.com/cubing/oll-trainer/ shortly after posting earlier and was using it, but even if I cycle in U or H (both of which I am only vaguely familiar with) OLLs it still tends to give me the same COLL cases, or just never seems to generate 1 or 2 COLLs for a set. Still helpful, but clearly not quite as helpful as the one you linked. Thank you!

 

[RonM]

So! I've been very, very casually learning the COLLs but only implement them in slow solves for now (I'm still working on fast PLL recognition and execution). I've mostly been focusing on trying to plan EOLine within the 15s inspection window...

How do you guys do it, seriously? So far I can do EO detection 100% of the time within 15s, but if I'm looking at more than 6 edges I have no hope of planning EO and have to do most of it on the fly, then pull together a Line. Will it really just become easier and faster with practice, or did you guys use some kind of deliberate practice technique?

 

[AlphaSheep]

So! I've been very, very casually learning the COLLs but only implement them in slow solves for now (I'm still working on fast PLL recognition and execution). I've mostly been focusing on trying to plan EOLine within the 15s inspection window...

How do you guys do it, seriously? So far I can do EO detection 100% of the time within 15s, but if I'm looking at more than 6 edges I have no hope of planning EO and have to do most of it on the fly, then pull together a Line. Will it really just become easier and faster with practice, or did you guys use some kind of deliberate practice technique?

For a while after I started I used to only plan EO for the first 4 bad edges. When I averaged about 35s, I realised that was a big weakness, so one day I did 200 EO only solves where I rushed identifying the bad edges and forced myself to plan full EO. Thinking only of speed and allowing myself to make mistakes occasionally was part of the key to getting faster.

I had a habit of counting and then checking my count, which I managed to stop. If I do make a mistake now, it's almost always only one missed edge and I pick it up almost instantly in inspection and lose a second. Occasionally I do get EO wrong, but it's very unusual for it to happen more than once in 100 solves.

Just for reference, I tried timing steps of inspection when I averaged about 20s and my inspection was about 2s identification, 5s planning EO and 3s planning the line (although in actual competitions I panic and tend not to plan the line).

 

[JTcuber]

So! I've been very, very casually learning the COLLs but only implement them in slow solves for now (I'm still working on fast PLL recognition and execution). I've mostly been focusing on trying to plan EOLine within the 15s inspection window...

How do you guys do it, seriously? So far I can do EO detection 100% of the time within 15s, but if I'm looking at more than 6 edges I have no hope of planning EO and have to do most of it on the fly, then pull together a Line. Will it really just become easier and faster with practice, or did you guys use some kind of deliberate practice technique?

It just comes with practice. I can detect edges basically instantly, and plan out the whole EOline in about 5-8 seconds. I've used ZZ for almost 2 years though, but it gets way easier once you practice more. Just focus on planning out EO, then add tracking the line pieces, and then try to plan out the whole line once you're good with that. I'm trying to learn to plan out my first block in inspection, but piece placement gets hard to predict once you start worrying about more than 2-3 pieces, and you need to track 5 for FB

 

[RonM]

@AlphaSheep Thank you for the insightful reply. It's really encouraging to hear about your initial struggles. Last night I was messing around on csTimer and my solves were horrible and even worse than when I first started practicing with a timer (+6 seconds average, making for +16 seconds total over my timerless inspections).

It was very discouraging. I ended up getting so frustrated I had to put the cube down and walk away (it was like 2:30 AM at this point, so I just went to bed). While laying in bed I was seriously contemplating giving up ZZ and returning to CFOP or maybe taking up Petrus - I know both those methods fairly well, but neither are nearly as fun for me as ZZ, but on the other hand neither have ever frustrated me as much as I was last night. I've found that at most I can track about 5 edges and almost always lose track of the sixth, let alone line edges unless it is one of the five. So with timed inspections I end up with long pauses between EO and Line where I have to find one or both line edges, then another pause after that while I assess my best block/pair choice or just try to find one if none immediately jump out at me. I was pretty sure when I went to sleep last night I would be practicing CFOP in the morning.

I woke up today and seem to have gotten over it; I haven't done any timed solves today either though and have just instead been practicing EO+Line OH (just decided on the OH thing today at random during breakfast since if I can learn to solve OH I can easily double my practice time). I see in some walkthrough ZZ solves they will rotate the cube to make EOLine easier; I tried it a few times not too long ago but really struggled with the concept, so I'm hoping that the necessity of cube rotations in OH will help make it more intuitive and familiar over time.

It just comes with practice. I can detect edges basically instantly, and plan out the whole EOline in about 5-8 seconds. I've used ZZ for almost 2 years though, but it gets way easier once you practice more. Just focus on planning out EO, then add tracking the line pieces, and then try to plan out the whole line once you're good with that. I'm trying to learn to plan out my first block in inspection, but piece placement gets hard to predict once you start worrying about more than 2-3 pieces, and you need to track 5 for FB

When I do solves with unlimited inspection I can plan out full EO and track the line as I go about 50% of the time and relative idea where they are 25% of the remaining 50% of the time, and the other 25% of the time I can do full EOLine simply because it's an easy EOLine case. I just crumble the moment I start timing the inspection. Often times I've detected all of EO by the 8s mark, but then as I start planning how to pull together my first group of fixes (seems a lot harder when timed, that's usually the easiest part of my non-timed EO) I lose track of an edge.

I don't see how you or @AlphaSheep detect and fix EO so fast. Do you guys have a standard order you inspect in that helps you optimize your moves? I've been doing my inspections by counting U, then D, then the slice (<- correct terminology?) edges but earlier today I was wondering if it would be more efficient to count them: F -> B -> slice edges?

 

[Pyjam]

For inspection, I do: Front -> Slice -> Back.
But I suppose the most important thing is to choose what works the best for you and stick with it.

 

[GenTheSnail]

I don't see how you or @AlphaSheep detect and fix EO so fast. Do you guys have a standard order you inspect in that helps you optimize your moves? I've been doing my inspections by counting U, then D, then the slice (<- correct terminology?) edges but earlier today I was wondering if it would be more efficient to count them: F -> B -> slice edges?

I solve ZZ Blue Front, Yellow Top.
When inspecting for bad edges, I start with Green Front, Yellow Top (so z2 after scrambling). I note any bad edges on the green face, do a cw y2 while noting the edge state on LU/LD. I note the edge state on the front and then on RU/RD.
I plan out my EO strategy while I check for bad edges, and that usually doesn't take much more than 5-6 seconds. I then check my Line edges, and usually f--- planing them out and just track them during EO (I'm trying to get out of the habit).

When I first started maining ZZ, a little over a year ago, I would put my fingers on all my bad edges as I inspected. This really helped me to not have to remember where the bad edges where.

And I never time inspection. Like, ever.
With enough practice, you'll get under 15s inspection, and then under 10s inspection easy.
It will take time, but you'll get there.

 

[Y2k1]

It will take time, but you'll get there.

I used zz straight after lbl, and I honestly find it harder to plan an efficient cross vs an eoline (sub 12 zz & sub 17 cfop)

 

[AlphaSheep]

I don't see how you or @AlphaSheep detect and fix EO so fast. Do you guys have a standard order you inspect in that helps you optimize your moves? I've been doing my inspections by counting U, then D, then the slice (<- correct terminology?) edges but earlier today I was wondering if it would be more efficient to count them: F -> B -> slice edges?

I hold the cube at 45° so that I can get a good all around view just by tilting the cube slightly. I don't need to but I still like to put my fingers on most of the bad edges. It helps me think about how they will move as I trace where the line edges will go.

I inspect L, B, R then F, and I only look at U or D if I need to. It's so automatic by now after almost 4 years of doing ZZ, I'm not even sure how my brain does it. I definitely don't look at each edge individually - I take in a whole face at once. So if I look at the orange face (L), I ignore orange and red stickers. If I see yellow or white (U or D), I count them, and if I see blue or green (F or B) I tilt the cube a little and peek around the side for more info. I didn't start doing this deliberately. It just naturally got to that point where I was doing it.

And like @GenTheThief, I've pretty much never timed inspection other than for the brief period mentioned in my last post (which was only a day or two). It's more important to do it properly. Speed will come naturally with practice.

 

[JTcuber]

It was very discouraging. I ended up getting so frustrated I had to put the cube down and walk away (it was like 2:30 AM at this point, so I just went to bed). While laying in bed I was seriously contemplating giving up ZZ and returning to CFOP or maybe taking up Petrus - I know both those methods fairly well, but neither are nearly as fun for me as ZZ, but on the other hand neither have ever frustrated me as much as I was last night. I've found that at most I can track about 5 edges and almost always lose track of the sixth, let alone line edges unless it is one of the five. So with timed inspections I end up with long pauses between EO and Line where I have to find one or both line edges, then another pause after that while I assess my best block/pair choice or just try to find one if none immediately jump out at me. I was pretty sure when I went to sleep last night I would be practicing CFOP in the morning.

I woke up today and seem to have gotten over it; I haven't done any timed solves today either though and have just instead been practicing EO+Line OH (just decided on the OH thing today at random during breakfast since if I can learn to solve OH I can easily double my practice time). I see in some walkthrough ZZ solves they will rotate the cube to make EOLine easier; I tried it a few times not too long ago but really struggled with the concept, so I'm hoping that the necessity of cube rotations in OH will help make it more intuitive and familiar over time.



When I do solves with unlimited inspection I can plan out full EO and track the line as I go about 50% of the time and relative idea where they are 25% of the remaining 50% of the time, and the other 25% of the time I can do full EOLine simply because it's an easy EOLine case. I just crumble the moment I start timing the inspection. Often times I've detected all of EO by the 8s mark, but then as I start planning how to pull together my first group of fixes (seems a lot harder when timed, that's usually the easiest part of my non-timed EO) I lose track of an edge.

I don't see how you or @AlphaSheep detect and fix EO so fast. Do you guys have a standard order you inspect in that helps you optimize your moves? I've been doing my inspections by counting U, then D, then the slice (<- correct terminology?) edges but earlier today I was wondering if it would be more efficient to count them: F -> B -> slice edges?

ZZ is really tough at first, trust me. It gets a lot easier with time, and you'll get a lot better. And for EO detection, it just starts to become second nature. I've probably done at least 25-30,000 solves with ZZ, and after a while, you don't have to think about whether edges are oriented or not. I don't really think about EO anymore, I just know the orientation by looking at it. It takes a while to really get that ingrained into you, but you get really fast detection once you don't have to think about whether the edges are oriented or not. I wouldn't worry about this yet, but once you are able to plan out full EOline in inspection time, start trying to work on y axis neutrality. Sometimes, you may have an EOline that's 9-12 moves and not that fingertricky on your main orientation, but you may have only a 5 or 6 mover on another face. Just work on normal EOline for now though, I didn't switch until probably about 10 months in. Just be sure that you practice good habits early on, especially using blockbuilding and not EOCross. EOCross is nice if it's only 2 or 3 moves extra, but if you rely on it, it'll become a really bad habit. I'm still trying to break that habit, so just don't get into it to begin with. Just work on blockbuilding and try doing stuff like EO blindfolded, and then try to do the whole line BLD. It gets a lot easier, and if you stick with it, ZZ can be really good

 

[RonM]

Sorry for the late reply fellows, I guess I forgot to "Post Reply".

Thank you all very much for the advice, I've been really giving my EO+Line a lot of attention and have, more or less, relaxed a lot on the inspection times and have been practicing EO Detection from different angles. Before I was mentally translating what it should look like from the blue face and having to go through the rules, but lately I've been starting my inspection with the green side and rotating the cube to the front, inspecting and planning (what I can) as I go while trying, mostly, to take in an entire face at a time as @AlphaSheep does and I imagine others do as well. That combined with OH practice (for growing comfortable with x/z cube rotations) has really made EOLine possible for me and EO+Line a lot easier; I can track my Line 100% of the time and plan an EOLine more often than before.

@GenTheThief I do the finger thing too for remembering pieces but some times they are just placed really awkardly and my cube destabilizes; it gets messy. How long do you think you used your fingers to help you? I've been trying to break the need for it by just planning the first four in my head then putting my fingers on whatever bad edges remain.

@JTcuber I've been practicing y-color neutrality somewhat, but honestly not nearly as much as I used to since my main goals right now are to get EOLine down and smooth out my EOLine to ZZF2L transition. I figure once I can reliably EOLine with my main front (blue) within the 15s inspection window I'll start practicing for CN. I'm going to be 100% honest with you, I initially kind of brushed off what you said about EOCross because I tend to favor finding blocks first, completing a side, then doing the other side's block and pair. It just kind of struck me when working on EOLine to F2L transition to focus on my F2L since I realized I was favoring CFOP pairing, or rather was still in a CFOP mentality. I revisited asmallsheep's tutorial and actually sat and watched the entire thing without getting distracted (a feat for the father of a seven year old) and learned a whole new way of thinking about pairing and block building that I hadn't really considered before. My Ao12 following that video dropped, I kid you not, 6s (from 44.19 to 37.46) - mostly because finding that first block or pair after EOLine has gotten immediately easier.

I feel like my EOLine is at a place now where just practice solves will cement what I know, so my focus will be shifting to F2L and improving my efficiency there since I'm pretty sure the community is in agreement that F2L is generally where everyone can improve the most -- I typically finish EOLine and F2L at around 35-40 seconds, then my LL in about 4-6 seconds (3LLL). Granted, my LL would probably be 3-5 seconds if I'd stop checking the timer every time I get to it.

I tried block building with my eyes closed and generally I can do the pairing no problem (probably from CFOP), but building a full block yields a lot of misplaced pieces. I'm also beginning to realize that a lot of the cases I thought I had a good grasp on... I was actually solving really inefficiently.

Not really off topic, but in a different direction... did you guys have to relearn your PLL algs for OH? I swear I'll get to some algs and just have zero idea how to do them anymore, but then when I go back to two-handed I can do them no problem.

 

[One Wheel]

Not really off topic, but in a different direction... did you guys have to relearn your PLL algs for OH? I swear I'll get to some algs and just have zero idea how to do them anymore, but then when I go back to two-handed I can do them no problem.

I'm getting better, but I had a lot of trouble with F- and V-perms OH, and I still mess up G-perms sometimes. Foot solving helps a lot, because you learn to look at what the cube is doing rather than relying on muscle memory.

 

[RonM]

I'm getting better, but I had a lot of trouble with F- and V-perms OH, and I still mess up G-perms sometimes. Foot solving helps a lot, because you learn to look at what the cube is doing rather than relying on muscle memory.

See, I was wondering about that. I'm guessing you learned to track the pairs and such with your LL algs?

 

[One Wheel]

See, I was wondering about that. I'm guessing you learned to track the pairs and such with your LL algs?

For F- and V-perms specifically it was actually my LL color. My V-perm is R' U R' d R' F' R2 U' R' U . . . [Finish intuitively]. After the R2 there is a small L of the LL color on top, and my problem was that I was doing a U instead of U' and breaking the L. F-perm is the same alg except replace the first U with a U2, and instead of the L there is a square.

 

[JTcuber]

@JTcuber I've been practicing y-color neutrality somewhat, but honestly not nearly as much as I used to since my main goals right now are to get EOLine down and smooth out my EOLine to ZZF2L transition. I figure once I can reliably EOLine with my main front (blue) within the 15s inspection window I'll start practicing for CN. I'm going to be 100% honest with you, I initially kind of brushed off what you said about EOCross because I tend to favor finding blocks first, completing a side, then doing the other side's block and pair. It just kind of struck me when working on EOLine to F2L transition to focus on my F2L since I realized I was favoring CFOP pairing, or rather was still in a CFOP mentality. I revisited asmallsheep's tutorial and actually sat and watched the entire thing without getting distracted (a feat for the father of a seven year old) and learned a whole new way of thinking about pairing and block building that I hadn't really considered before. My Ao12 following that video dropped, I kid you not, 6s (from 44.19 to 37.46) - mostly because finding that first block or pair after EOLine has gotten immediately easier.

I feel like my EOLine is at a place now where just practice solves will cement what I know, so my focus will be shifting to F2L and improving my efficiency there since I'm pretty sure the community is in agreement that F2L is generally where everyone can improve the most -- I typically finish EOLine and F2L at around 35-40 seconds, then my LL in about 4-6 seconds (3LLL). Granted, my LL would probably be 3-5 seconds if I'd stop checking the timer every time I get to it.

I tried block building with my eyes closed and generally I can do the pairing no problem (probably from CFOP), but building a full block yields a lot of misplaced pieces. I'm also beginning to realize that a lot of the cases I thought I had a good grasp on... I was actually solving really inefficiently.

It's great to hear you're improving so much! I would say don't worry about CN too much, just practice on your main orientation until EO detection is completely unconscious. I don't think I learned CN until I averaged 15-17ish. It's a lot easier if a transition than with CFOP too, I was able to do it in just a couple days.

I agree that you should focus mostly on F2L. Luckily, LL is easy to improve on cause you can always just learn new algs. I usually still build a 3/4 cross, mostly because it helps me with lookahead but is much more efficient than a full EOcross. If you can see blocks easily though, that's fantastic, and you should definitely do that. I would say my suggestions for you are just to keep practicing, because that's honestly probably the best way to get better with ZZ, and try to transition to 2LLL. It might only drop your average a little, but the sooner you become comfortable with those algs, the better. Another thing is that the blind block building you do is fantastic, and you should definitely keep doing that, and your lookahead will be great later on. Good luck to you!